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2020 FORMULA 1 SEASON

BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
In addition:
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.

I hope their DAS is purely mechanical, in that case. This is one of those "barely legal until another team makes a strong enough case" pieces of tech. In any case, I love it. This is the innovation that makes Formula 1 the top dog in motorsport.

Edit: Unlessssss, adjusting the toe -- and only the toe -- is not viewed as an adjustment to the suspension setup by the FIA. It's only changing the angles of the front wheels. The toe arm's function is limited to maintaining that angle. If they've designed it cleverly enough, it shouldn't affect the suspension system.

10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted.
--- Still only changing two wheels at a time. This rule checks out.

10.4.3 No part of the steering wheel or column, nor any part fitted to them, may be closer to the driver than a plane formed by the entire rear edge of the steering wheel rim. All parts fixed to the steering wheel must be fitted in such a way as to minimise the risk of injury in the event of a driver’s head making contact with any part of the wheel assembly.
--- This is a technicality that I could see making an issue. When I was in Formula SAE, this distance of wheel to driver was extremely important and the template was very precise. There was very little wiggle room for us to adjust this distance. Watching the video of Hamilton pulling the wheel, it looks like he pulls the wheel towards himself at least 10mm. That is a whole hell of a lot when you're designing on the edge of regulations.
Wow it just got really technical in here

Heres my thing, if they can activate it in turns, whats to say they wont activate it in turns to aid with grip or something? Too many driving assists as is .

Unpopular opinion here, make drs usable at any time the drivers want to .

Dont really like this new change of toe setting, before you know it splitters will be activated to change direction etc.
The idea around 10.2.2 is that the steering wheel is by definition a movable device and exempt... The steering wheel actively alters the suspension on all F1 cars already... Ackerman steering alters toe and ride height.... And its safe to assume its unpowered... whats curious is as Hamilton pushes the wheel back and forth, the toe change in the tyre itself is quick, almost like an ON/OFF, not progressively going from one toe setting to another as he gently moves the wheel.... Im so curious to see how it works...

edit: on 10.4.3 I guess thats done during scrutinizing / parc ferme (They just leave the wheel pushed forward) .... There is nothing explicit saying the wheel cant move after....

They are boasting that the FIA told them its allowed... It must be, or else they wouldn't, right? Whats their angle here....

The teams can convince the FIA its a safety issue (Hamilton's comments on the device where always, "very safe", "easy", etc... really trying to drive the point there is nothing unsafe about it), Thats the only way to ban it.... The only other way is to add a regulation that prevents the second axis movement of a the wheel, but they would need approval for all the teams... including mercedes...
Wow it just got really technical in here

Glad to see passionate F1 fans on here, thought i was on of the few.
I imagine it's not intended to be freely adjustable by the driver. They've dialed in two toe settings: one more negative to maintain cornering agility and one more positive than that to increase stability on the straights. So he pushes all the way in for the more negative setting and pulls all the way out for the more positive setting. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
Wow it just got really technical in here

The slight change in toe will also aerodynamically change where/how the wind goes over the tires..even if minimal as well
Exactly having the driver eyeball toe adjustment by moving the wheel forwards and back millimeters is not feasible... Having it snap back and forth between to preset adjustments is the best approach... its just so curious to see how they did it, it looks like a very elegant design.....

I dont think stability is an issue in the straights, its more to keep the tires warm by adding more toe in the straights... The wear rate isnt a problem because the tyres wearing faster are usually the rears...

OR in other circuits they could have more toe for slow corners, their weakness, to help the car rotate and on the straights dial it back and prevent overheating... its marvelous

edit: OR maybe stability in high speed corners.... Say the Silverstone eses... have one pre-set setting with more toe out* for the slow speed corners, like the ones before the start/finish and then more* toe in for all the high speed ones....
Wow it just got really technical in here


Ah, tire nannying makes a lot more sense.

I can't wait to see a technical analysis on this, and I'm really curious to know how much weight the system adds. I wonder if it'll make it to the season proper.
Wow it just got really technical in here

Hamilton doesnt need any more tire nannying lol...

Hamilton- "my tires are gone, my tires my tires!" ...

also Hamilton - (sets fastest lap of race 5 laps after complaining his tires are gone)


Everytime^
 

torga

Autocross Newbie
Heres my thing, if they can activate it in turns, whats to say they wont activate it in turns to aid with grip or something? Too many driving assists as is .

Unpopular opinion here, make drs usable at any time the drivers want to .

Dont really like this new change of toe setting, before you know it splitters will be activated to change direction etc.

The slight change in toe will also aerodynamically change where/how the wind goes over the tires..even if minimal as well
They won't be messing with active splitters, ever. At least until regs change. Active aero is 100%, strictly illegal, unless it's the highly-regulated DRS.
You're right about the tire minimally affecting airflow over the rest of the car. Not sure if that rises to the category of active aero, so I don't think teams will be able to use that as a claim. They would have to prove that it gives the team an aero advantage. I really doubt it does, though.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I want the 2021 regs to let the cars follow so closely that they're able to do away with DRS altogether.

Glad to see passionate F1 fans on here, thought i was on of the few.
It all came from my time in Formula SAE in college. Getting hands-on with similarly stringent technical rules and going through almost the same design processes as the F1 teams do gave me a really intimate respect for the sport.

Hamilton doesnt need any more tire nannying lol...

Hamilton- "my tires are gone, my tires my tires!" ...

also Hamilton - (sets fastest lap of race 5 laps after complaining his tires are gone)

Everytime^
Mercedes's Trademarked Sandbags™

Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
🥵 🥵 🥵
 

hans611

Lost
They won't be messing with active splitters, ever. At least until regs change. Active aero is 100%, strictly illegal, unless it's the highly-regulated DRS.
You're right about the tire minimally affecting airflow over the rest of the car. Not sure if that rises to the category of active aero, so I don't think teams will be able to use that as a claim. They would have to prove that it gives the team an aero advantage. I really doubt it does, though.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I want the 2021 regs to let the cars follow so closely that they're able to do away with DRS altogether.
Yeah, the slight toe change would alter airflow... Technically changing the toe could alter the aero outwash, obviously minimally, but could be a point of contention for the other teams...

"They are using the toe change to increase outwash in the corners to gain more rear end downforce (the airflow from the front end doesn't mess with the sidepods/floor/rear) and in the straights they dial back the outwash to lower drag (less effective frontal area)"

But there is soooo many things done that are in the grey area with "Movable Aero" in F1 that idk if it will stick... The entire cars are an active wing, all of them have complicated hydraulic suspension systems that encourage the car to squat and lower its angle of attack at high speed while raising the rear at slow speeds, putting the front wing closer to the ground and getting that sweet sweet ground effect...

Also all the wings themselves flex considerably, as the speed increase, their angle of attack drops..... Or the steering lowering the ride height (ground effect) as the steering angle is higher (more for the tight / slow corners)

Honestly they should have allowed active suspension in 2021, I really wanted that, it would have solved a lot of problems... The weight penalty would have been a deal breaker..... the solution would have been to drop the PU and go back to simple N/A engine, literally hand them the 2006 V8 2.4L rules again and pretend 2014 didnt happen... But we all know that wont happen, also honestly too much has been spend and the tech is really impressive..

What I do like about the cars is their starting weights, only 100kg of fuel in the 746kg min weight (They raised it again this year, many excuses, mainly weight compensation adding a secondary O2 sensor after the Ferrari protests last year) ... Compared to the V8s with MGUKs and no refueling, something like 150kg of fuel with a 640kg min weight, the cars would have almost 25% of their weight be fuel at the start....

Supposedly DRS will be dropped for 2021...

Edit: This DAS is one of the most interesting little greay area loopholes in recent memory... Other ones that pop to mind are Mclarens 3rd break pedal (only actuated the rear, to help the car rotate in slow/mid corners) and the F-duct (would stall the rear wing and lower drag).... Or Benneton's Traction Control.. That one is really good, very good read:

 
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BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
I'm of the opposite opinion. I want the 2021 regs to let the cars follow so closely that they're able to do away with DRS altogether.
I respect your opposing opinion and actually if removing DRS was an option i would fully support your position as well. Its just too hard for cars to overtake without it and even with it ...its too hard to break the aero wake behind the lead car to even use it.

You ever watch indy car series? Their cars are much more "raw" and driver oriented . The lack of aero and grip makes it more exciting imo.
 

torga

Autocross Newbie
But there is soooo many things done that are in the grey area with "Movable Aero" in F1 that idk if it will stick... The entire cars are an active wing, all of them have complicated hydraulic suspension systems that encourage the car to squat and lower its angle of attack at high speed while raising the rear at slow speeds, putting the front wing closer to the ground and getting that sweet sweet ground effect...

Also all the wings themselves flex considerably, as the speed increase, their angle of attack drops..... Or the steering lowering the ride height (ground effect) as the steering angle is higher (more for the tight / slow corners)
This is true, but there are regulations that restrict teams from abusing this too much. Skid plates on the floor to ensure the car isn't too low at heavy aero loads. Deflection tests that the scrutineers perform to ensure that the front wings and various cantilevered aero elements don't flex outside of spec. The teams aren't allowed to really use flexible aero components to their advantage. Not like some of the neat active aero we're seeing on supercars. I think it was the Ferrari 458 that had a pair of splitters that, IIRC, got pushed down at high speeds and allowed more air to flow ~somewhere~ (I don't remember where).

Honestly they should have allowed active suspension in 2021, I really wanted that, it would have solved a lot of problems... The weight penalty would have been a deal breaker..... the solution would have been to drop the PU and go back to simple N/A engine, literally hand them the 2006 V8 2.4L rules again and pretend 2014 didnt happen... But we all know that wont happen, also honestly too much has been spend and the tech is really impressive..

What I do like about the cars is their starting weights, only 100kg of fuel in the 746kg min weight (They raised it again this year, many excuses, mainly weight compensation adding a secondary O2 sensor after the Ferrari protests last year) ... Compared to the V8s with MGUKs and no refueling, something like 150kg of fuel with a 640kg min weight, the cars would have almost 25% of their weight be fuel at the start....

Supposedly DRS will be dropped for 2021...

Edit: This DAS is one of the most interesting little greay area loopholes in recent memory... Other ones that pop to mind are Mclarens 3rd break pedal (only actuated the rear, to help the car rotate in slow/mid corners) and the F-duct (would stall the rear wing and lower drag).... Or Benneton's Traction Control.. That one is really good, very good read:

What happened to McLaren's 3rd pedal? I forgot exactly why they stopped using it. Ferrari's F-duct was deemed unsafe, since it had to be enabled by the driver's hand.
Nice, I'm glad DRS is supposed to be dropped. It always felt a bit artificial. It was a nice strategy element, and drivers could let their dogfights culminate in a DRS zone. But I wanna see more creativity in overtakes.

The hybrid V6 tech is really, really good. I'm glad they went that route. However, I do miss those angry, screaming V10s and V8s. Those were some guttural, extreme sounds that may never be reached or replicated again in F1. But the new PUs are better, as a whole unit.

I respect your opposing opinion and actually if removing DRS was an option i would fully support your position as well. Its just too hard for cars to overtake without it and even with it ...its too hard to break the aero wake behind the lead car to even use it.

You ever watch indy car series? Their cars are much more "raw" and driver oriented . The lack of aero and grip makes it more exciting imo.
Can't say that I watch Indy. I was only interested a couple of years ago since Alonso was trying to win it. I heard he's trying again, and wanting to race a full season. Wouldn't that be insane if he won the INDY car championship? That would take the Triple Crown to a ridiculous level. One F1 WDC, one WEC WDC and one INDY WDC.
 
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hans611

Lost
This is true, but there are regulations that restrict teams from abusing this too much. Skid plates on the floor to ensure the car isn't too low at heavy aero loads. Deflection tests that the scrutineers perform to ensure that the front wings and various cantilevered aero elements don't flex outside of spec. The teams aren't allowed to really use flexible aero components to their advantage. Not like some of the neat active aero we're seeing on supercars. I think it was the Ferrari 458 that had a pair of splitters that, IIRC, got pushed down at high speeds and allowed more air to flow ~somewhere~ (I don't remember where).
Yes it was the 458! They called it the "Flex splitter"

What happened to McLaren's 3rd pedal? I forgot exactly why they stopped using it. Ferrari's F-duct was deemed unsafe, since it had to be enabled by the driver's hand.
Nice, I'm glad DRS is supposed to be dropped. It always felt a bit artificial. It was a nice strategy element, and drivers could let their dogfights culminate in a DRS zone. But I wanna see more creativity in overtakes.
Apparently the 3rd pedal was eventually banned..... "It was banned on the basis of four-wheel steering, although obviously it was not realigning the wheels,” says Goss. “We called it brake-steer, which was unfortunate when we tried to argue that it wasn’t anything to do with steering! It was a bad choice of name from ourselves."

From the Horse's mouth: https://www.mclaren.com/racing/inside-the-mtc/mclaren-extra-pedal-3153421/

Yea, the F duct was nice when all they did was rest their knee in the hole.... Once Alonso started driving one handed they felt the need to drop it...

Can't say that I watch Indy. I was only interested a couple of years ago since Alonso was trying to win it. I heard he's trying again, and wanting to race a full season. Wouldn't that be insane if he won the INDY car championship? That would take the Triple Crown to a ridiculous level. One F1 WDC, one WEC WDC and one INDY WDC.
Apparently Honda blocked his Indy dreams ... "Agrh GP2 Engine GP2!"

Edit:


Oh this article came out being more specific about the FIA position, apparently it complies with 10.2.3 because its a steering system, not suspension lol

That while.... "Article 10.4.1 of the technical regulations states: 'Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted.' With the Mercedes system only adjusting the toe of the front wheels, then that is fully in compliance."

Just realigning the wheels inward/outward = Steering? .....haha, its gonna be good

Reports from Sky TV Italy saying the teams are lawyering up, and its gonna be the "movable aero" defense after all....
 
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torga

Autocross Newbie

Oh this article came out being more specific about the FIA position, apparently it complies with 10.2.3 because its a steering system, not suspension lol

That while.... "Article 10.4.1 of the technical regulations states: 'Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted.' With the Mercedes system only adjusting the toe of the front wheels, then that is fully in compliance."

Just realigning the wheels inward/outward = Steering? .....haha, its gonna be good

Reports from Sky TV Italy saying the teams are lawyering up, and its gonna be the "movable aero" defense after all....
While adjusting the toe in or out shouldn't be steering, it is absolutely a propulsion method. French fry... pizza... french fry... pizza...

All Merc boys have to do on the straights is pump the steering wheel in and out at a tempo of 100-120 BPM (they can hum Stayin' Alive by the Bee Gees if they wish), and this Ski Thrust™ that Merc have come up with is good for at least 15kph on the straight. It's a major advantage and the other teams have a fair right to be displeased.
 

hans611

Lost
So.... it is a copy-paste... from pictures....


So, is this new RP20 a copy-paste job?

“I can tell you absolutely, categorically all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch, there has been no transfer of information on listed parts from Mercedes. They have never contemplated it, we have never asked for it,” stressed Green.

“What you see [on the RP20] is what people have drawn from looking at pictures of Mercedes. We've utilised what we can see. There’s other teams taking pictures. There's a pit lane full of photographers employed by the teams to take pictures of other peoples’ teams. All we did was utilise that information.”

Also, DAS banned for next year:


Article 10.5 of F1's incoming technical regulations states: "The realignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel."

Translation: The wheels' alignment can only be altered by turning the steering wheel, and only by turning it.
 

torga

Autocross Newbie
So.... it is a copy-paste... from pictures....


So, is this new RP20 a copy-paste job?

“I can tell you absolutely, categorically all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch, there has been no transfer of information on listed parts from Mercedes. They have never contemplated it, we have never asked for it,” stressed Green.

“What you see [on the RP20] is what people have drawn from looking at pictures of Mercedes. We've utilised what we can see. There’s other teams taking pictures. There's a pit lane full of photographers employed by the teams to take pictures of other peoples’ teams. All we did was utilise that information.”
It's painfully obvious what they did. Just because you made something from scratch doesn't mean you didn't copy it. I can make a delicious dinner from scratch, but I can't say it's my own if I followed a recipe to the letter, now can I?

Also, DAS banned for next year:


Article 10.5 of F1's incoming technical regulations states: "The realignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel."

Translation: The wheels' alignment can only be altered by turning the steering wheel, and only by turning it.
Welp, if you don't get a rule made because of you, you're doing F1 design wrong! Good on the Merc team for doing something so innovative. I'm honestly surprised the FIA isn't banning it for the 2020 season, since they made a rule so quickly.
 

BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
So.... it is a copy-paste... from pictures....


So, is this new RP20 a copy-paste job?

“I can tell you absolutely, categorically all those designs are Racing Point from absolute scratch, there has been no transfer of information on listed parts from Mercedes. They have never contemplated it, we have never asked for it,” stressed Green.

“What you see [on the RP20] is what people have drawn from looking at pictures of Mercedes. We've utilised what we can see. There’s other teams taking pictures. There's a pit lane full of photographers employed by the teams to take pictures of other peoples’ teams. All we did was utilise that information.”

Also, DAS banned for next year:


Article 10.5 of F1's incoming technical regulations states: "The realignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel."

Translation: The wheels' alignment can only be altered by turning the steering wheel, and only by turning it.

So let me get this straight, they found a loophole to get around the rules? and the FIA is going to allow it for this season, but ban it next season? Did i read that correctly?
 

torga

Autocross Newbie
So let me get this straight, they found a loophole to get around the rules? and the FIA is going to allow it for this season, but ban it next season? Did i read that correctly?
Yep, and it's not the first time this has happened either. Oftentimes the tech in question is banned mid-season.
 

hans611

Lost
It's painfully obvious what they did. Just because you made something from scratch doesn't mean you didn't copy it. I can make a delicious dinner from scratch, but I can't say it's my own if I followed a recipe to the letter, now can I?
Yeah, exactly.....I hope they didn't botch it, because airflow is a very random and difficult thing to anticipate, CFD is very hard to do, if the car is off by a bit, it can have dire consequences down the car, causing all sorts of trouble, flow separation, etc...

But... now a days, the camera quality is so good, you can get super detailed images... they may do some 3d modelling to help? We will see..... its got the 2020 Mercedes engine with the 2019 Merc gearbox... let see what kind of lap times it does over the year compared the the W10....

Welp, if you don't get a rule made because of you, you're doing F1 design wrong! Good on the Merc team for doing something so innovative. I'm honestly surprised the FIA isn't banning it for the 2020 season, since they made a rule so quickly.
I feel like the FIA usually gives them a year to harvest the fruits of their innovation..... unless its unsafe. Its up to the other teams to copy it, the clock starts now... worth it for just 2020? Thats the game of F1.... like double diffusers with Brawn GP in 2009, the Mclaren F duct in 2010, the Red Bull off-throttle blown diffusers in 2011.... Mercedes Double DRS in 2012.... Lotus with FRIC (Front-Rear interlinked suspension) in 2013.... All 1 year haha
 

vbrad26

Go Kart Champion
Good.
I know people have mixed opinions of Alonso, but personally I'm glad to see he found a ride.
 

torga

Autocross Newbie
Good.
I know people have mixed opinions of Alonso, but personally I'm glad to see he found a ride.
Almost every single top driver has something bad/controversial about them. You don't have that kind of drive to be the best of the best with a white bread, peaches & cream personality.
Alonso is among my favorite drivers and I've been following his escapades since he retired from F1.
 

BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
i missed alonso in his prime, didnt get into f1 till a few years ago. lame.


Speaking of drive to survive....iirc i think its f1 thread rules to watch 1 episode at a time each day and discuss with other members first before watching the next one. Could be wrong though.
 
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