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2020 FORMULA 1 SEASON

torga

Autocross Champion

hans611

Lost
A couple of updates.... Racing Point showed up with last years Mercedes in pink....







The front end / wing / bargeboards are an exact copy... around the sidepods and then farther back they thew their own ideas, but thats expected... its easy to copy the front end, but what happens with airflow after that is very complicated, there are thousands of variables... there is simply no way to copy the ENTIRE car and have it behave as its supposed to... but they basically copied as much as its helpful.... apparently legal... but other things, t wing, airbox, etc, exact copies... hell even the brakes:



And the new Mercedes W11 has "Dual Axis Steering" (DAS), They just unveiled it earlier today in Barcelona...

VIDEO

It adjusts the toe angle... Most likely to keep the front tyres at temperature in the straights... With the full blessing of the FIA btw...

Mercedes have no concerns over legality of new ‘DAS’ steering system - Ariticle

edit: Ahhh you guys Ninja posted ahead of me haha... Here is a video of RP's Technical Director admitting the "copy" and being very honest:

https://streamable.com/br8h3
 

torga

Autocross Champion
@torga you see mercedes now has a button on their steering wheel to change chamber in the straightaways? wow
And the new Mercedes W11 has "Dual Axis Steering" (DAS), They just unveiled it earlier today in Barcelona...

VIDEO

It adjusts the toe angle... Most likely to keep the front tyres at temperature in the straights... With the full blessing of the FIA btw...

Mercedes have no concerns over legality of new ‘DAS’ steering system - Ariticle

FIA's Formula One Technical Regulations. Article 10, Section 2, Paragraph 3.

10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion.

Maybe Mercedes are interpreting this as no permanent adjustment to the suspension system. That's the only way I can imagine the FIA would be okay with this.
 

BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
Is that what this DAS is? I couldn't find anywhere to find what it does. Merc are swearing up and down that the FIA is fine with it and it's legal.... but changing suspension setup on the fly during a race, I'm pretty sure that's not allowed. So who's saying it changes camber?

https://www.racefans.net/2020/02/20...rns-over-legality-of-new-das-steering-system/
see what Hans611 post, very informative
A couple of updates.... Racing Point showed up with last years Mercedes in pink....







The front end / wing / bargeboards are an exact copy... around the sidepods and then farther back they thew their own ideas, but thats expected... its easy to copy the front end, but what happens with airflow after that is very complicated, there are thousands of variables... there is simply no way to copy the ENTIRE car and have it behave as its supposed to... but they basically copied as much as its helpful.... apparently legal... but other things, t wing, airbox, etc, exact copies... hell even the brakes:



And the new Mercedes W11 has "Dual Axis Steering" (DAS), They just unveiled it earlier today in Barcelona...

VIDEO

It adjusts the toe angle... Most likely to keep the front tyres at temperature in the straights... With the full blessing of the FIA btw...

Mercedes have no concerns over legality of new ‘DAS’ steering system - Ariticle

edit: Ahhh you guys Ninja posted ahead of me haha... Here is a video of RP's Technical Director admitting the "copy" and being very honest:

https://streamable.com/br8h3

lol at ninja post, your post was much more informative .

Yeah the DAS system changes the toe angle in the straights, theres video of it. Interesting for sure, mercedes was already hard enough to compete with.

alfas new car livery looks great, so does williams rokit imo

This is the new they claim the rear wings will cause less turbulent air right?, we'll see i guess ...



Team Leclerc here
 

torga

Autocross Champion
FIA's Formula One Technical Regulations. Article 10, Section 2, Paragraph 3.

10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion.

Maybe Mercedes are interpreting this as no permanent adjustment to the suspension system. That's the only way I can imagine the FIA would be okay with this.
In addition:
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.

I hope their DAS is purely mechanical, in that case. This is one of those "barely legal until another team makes a strong enough case" pieces of tech. In any case, I love it. This is the innovation that makes Formula 1 the top dog in motorsport.

Edit: Unlessssss, adjusting the toe -- and only the toe -- is not viewed as an adjustment to the suspension setup by the FIA. It's only changing the angles of the front wheels. The toe arm's function is limited to maintaining that angle. If they've designed it cleverly enough, it shouldn't affect the suspension system.

10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted.
--- Still only changing two wheels at a time. This rule checks out.

10.4.3 No part of the steering wheel or column, nor any part fitted to them, may be closer to the driver than a plane formed by the entire rear edge of the steering wheel rim. All parts fixed to the steering wheel must be fitted in such a way as to minimise the risk of injury in the event of a driver’s head making contact with any part of the wheel assembly.
--- This is a technicality that I could see making an issue. When I was in Formula SAE, this distance of wheel to driver was extremely important and the template was very precise. There was very little wiggle room for us to adjust this distance. Watching the video of Hamilton pulling the wheel, it looks like he pulls the wheel towards himself at least 10mm. That is a whole hell of a lot when you're designing on the edge of regulations.
 
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hans611

Lost
In addition:
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.

I hope their DAS is purely mechanical, in that case. This is one of those "barely legal until another team makes a strong enough case" pieces of tech. In any case, I love it. This is the innovation that makes Formula 1 the top dog in motorsport.

Edit: Unlessssss, adjusting the toe -- and only the toe -- is not viewed as an adjustment to the suspension setup by the FIA. It's only changing the angles of the front wheels. The toe arm's function is limited to maintaining that angle. If they've designed it cleverly enough, it shouldn't affect the suspension system.

10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted.
--- Still only changing two wheels at a time. This rule checks out.

10.4.3 No part of the steering wheel or column, nor any part fitted to them, may be closer to the driver than a plane formed by the entire rear edge of the steering wheel rim. All parts fixed to the steering wheel must be fitted in such a way as to minimise the risk of injury in the event of a driver’s head making contact with any part of the wheel assembly.
--- This is a technicality that I could see making an issue. When I was in Formula SAE, this distance of wheel to driver was extremely important and the template was very precise. There was very little wiggle room for us to adjust this distance. Watching the video of Hamilton pulling the wheel, it looks like he moves it forward at least 10mm. That is a whole hell of a lot when you're designing on the edge of regulations.

The idea around 10.2.2 is that the steering wheel is by definition a movable device and exempt... The steering wheel actively alters the suspension on all F1 cars already... Ackerman steering alters toe and ride height.... And its safe to assume its unpowered... whats curious is as Hamilton pushes the wheel back and forth, the toe change in the tyre itself is quick, almost like an ON/OFF, not progressively going from one toe setting to another as he gently moves the wheel.... Im so curious to see how it works...

edit: on 10.4.3 I guess thats done during scrutinizing / parc ferme (They just leave the wheel pushed forward) .... There is nothing explicit saying the wheel cant move after....

They are boasting that the FIA told them its allowed... It must be, or else they wouldn't, right? Whats their angle here....

The teams can convince the FIA its a safety issue (Hamilton's comments on the device where always, "very safe", "easy", etc... really trying to drive the point there is nothing unsafe about it), Thats the only way to ban it.... The only other way is to add a regulation that prevents the second axis movement of a the wheel, but they would need approval for all the teams... including mercedes...
 
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torga

Autocross Champion
The idea around 10.2.2 is that the steering wheel is by definition a movable device and exempt... The steering wheel actively alters the suspension on all F1 cars already... Ackerman steering alters toe and ride height.... And its safe to assume its unpowered... whats curious is as Hamilton pushes the wheel back and forth, the toe change in the tyre itself is quick, almost like an ON/OFF, not progressively going from one toe setting to another as he gently moves the wheel....
I imagine it's not intended to be freely adjustable by the driver. They've dialed in two toe settings: one more negative to maintain cornering agility and one more positive than that to increase stability on the straights. So he pushes all the way in for the more negative setting and pulls all the way out for the more positive setting. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
 

hans611

Lost
I imagine it's not intended to be freely adjustable by the driver. They've dialed in two toe settings: one more negative to maintain cornering agility and one more positive than that to increase stability on the straights. So he pushes all the way in for the more negative setting and pulls all the way out for the more positive setting. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

Exactly having the driver eyeball toe adjustment by moving the wheel forwards and back millimeters is not feasible... Having it snap back and forth between to preset adjustments is the best approach... its just so curious to see how they did it, it looks like a very elegant design.....

I dont think stability is an issue in the straights, its more to keep the tires warm by adding more toe in the straights... The wear rate isnt a problem because the tyres wearing faster are usually the rears...

OR in other circuits they could have more toe for slow corners, their weakness, to help the car rotate and on the straights dial it back and prevent overheating... its marvelous

edit: OR maybe stability in high speed corners.... Say the Silverstone eses... have one pre-set setting with more toe out* for the slow speed corners, like the ones before the start/finish and then more* toe in for all the high speed ones....
 

torga

Autocross Champion
Exactly having the driver eyeball toe adjustment by moving the wheel forwards and back millimeters is not feasible... Having it snap back and forth between to preset adjustments is the best approach... its just so curious to see how they did it, it looks like a very elegant design.....

I dont think stability is an issue in the straights, its more to keep the tires warm by adding more toe in the straights... The wear rate isnt a problem because the tyres wearing faster are usually the rears...

OR in other circuits they could have more toe in for slow corners, their weakness, to help the car rotate and on the straights dial it back and prevent overheating... its marvelous

edit: OR maybe stability in high speed corners.... Say the Silverstone eses... have one pre-set setting with more toe out* for the slow speed corners, like the ones before the start/finish and then more* toe in for all the high speed ones....
Ah, tire nannying makes a lot more sense.

I can't wait to see a technical analysis on this, and I'm really curious to know how much weight the system adds. I wonder if it'll make it to the season proper.
 

BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
In addition:
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.

I hope their DAS is purely mechanical, in that case. This is one of those "barely legal until another team makes a strong enough case" pieces of tech. In any case, I love it. This is the innovation that makes Formula 1 the top dog in motorsport.

Edit: Unlessssss, adjusting the toe -- and only the toe -- is not viewed as an adjustment to the suspension setup by the FIA. It's only changing the angles of the front wheels. The toe arm's function is limited to maintaining that angle. If they've designed it cleverly enough, it shouldn't affect the suspension system.

10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted.
--- Still only changing two wheels at a time. This rule checks out.

10.4.3 No part of the steering wheel or column, nor any part fitted to them, may be closer to the driver than a plane formed by the entire rear edge of the steering wheel rim. All parts fixed to the steering wheel must be fitted in such a way as to minimise the risk of injury in the event of a driver’s head making contact with any part of the wheel assembly.
--- This is a technicality that I could see making an issue. When I was in Formula SAE, this distance of wheel to driver was extremely important and the template was very precise. There was very little wiggle room for us to adjust this distance. Watching the video of Hamilton pulling the wheel, it looks like he pulls the wheel towards himself at least 10mm. That is a whole hell of a lot when you're designing on the edge of regulations.
Wow it just got really technical in here

Heres my thing, if they can activate it in turns, whats to say they wont activate it in turns to aid with grip or something? Too many driving assists as is .

Unpopular opinion here, make drs usable at any time the drivers want to .

Dont really like this new change of toe setting, before you know it splitters will be activated to change direction etc.
The idea around 10.2.2 is that the steering wheel is by definition a movable device and exempt... The steering wheel actively alters the suspension on all F1 cars already... Ackerman steering alters toe and ride height.... And its safe to assume its unpowered... whats curious is as Hamilton pushes the wheel back and forth, the toe change in the tyre itself is quick, almost like an ON/OFF, not progressively going from one toe setting to another as he gently moves the wheel.... Im so curious to see how it works...

edit: on 10.4.3 I guess thats done during scrutinizing / parc ferme (They just leave the wheel pushed forward) .... There is nothing explicit saying the wheel cant move after....

They are boasting that the FIA told them its allowed... It must be, or else they wouldn't, right? Whats their angle here....

The teams can convince the FIA its a safety issue (Hamilton's comments on the device where always, "very safe", "easy", etc... really trying to drive the point there is nothing unsafe about it), Thats the only way to ban it.... The only other way is to add a regulation that prevents the second axis movement of a the wheel, but they would need approval for all the teams... including mercedes...
Wow it just got really technical in here

Glad to see passionate F1 fans on here, thought i was on of the few.
I imagine it's not intended to be freely adjustable by the driver. They've dialed in two toe settings: one more negative to maintain cornering agility and one more positive than that to increase stability on the straights. So he pushes all the way in for the more negative setting and pulls all the way out for the more positive setting. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
Wow it just got really technical in here

The slight change in toe will also aerodynamically change where/how the wind goes over the tires..even if minimal as well
Exactly having the driver eyeball toe adjustment by moving the wheel forwards and back millimeters is not feasible... Having it snap back and forth between to preset adjustments is the best approach... its just so curious to see how they did it, it looks like a very elegant design.....

I dont think stability is an issue in the straights, its more to keep the tires warm by adding more toe in the straights... The wear rate isnt a problem because the tyres wearing faster are usually the rears...

OR in other circuits they could have more toe for slow corners, their weakness, to help the car rotate and on the straights dial it back and prevent overheating... its marvelous

edit: OR maybe stability in high speed corners.... Say the Silverstone eses... have one pre-set setting with more toe out* for the slow speed corners, like the ones before the start/finish and then more* toe in for all the high speed ones....
Wow it just got really technical in here


Ah, tire nannying makes a lot more sense.

I can't wait to see a technical analysis on this, and I'm really curious to know how much weight the system adds. I wonder if it'll make it to the season proper.
Wow it just got really technical in here

Hamilton doesnt need any more tire nannying lol...

Hamilton- "my tires are gone, my tires my tires!" ...

also Hamilton - (sets fastest lap of race 5 laps after complaining his tires are gone)


Everytime^
 

torga

Autocross Champion
Heres my thing, if they can activate it in turns, whats to say they wont activate it in turns to aid with grip or something? Too many driving assists as is .

Unpopular opinion here, make drs usable at any time the drivers want to .

Dont really like this new change of toe setting, before you know it splitters will be activated to change direction etc.

The slight change in toe will also aerodynamically change where/how the wind goes over the tires..even if minimal as well
They won't be messing with active splitters, ever. At least until regs change. Active aero is 100%, strictly illegal, unless it's the highly-regulated DRS.
You're right about the tire minimally affecting airflow over the rest of the car. Not sure if that rises to the category of active aero, so I don't think teams will be able to use that as a claim. They would have to prove that it gives the team an aero advantage. I really doubt it does, though.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I want the 2021 regs to let the cars follow so closely that they're able to do away with DRS altogether.

Glad to see passionate F1 fans on here, thought i was on of the few.
It all came from my time in Formula SAE in college. Getting hands-on with similarly stringent technical rules and going through almost the same design processes as the F1 teams do gave me a really intimate respect for the sport.

Hamilton doesnt need any more tire nannying lol...

Hamilton- "my tires are gone, my tires my tires!" ...

also Hamilton - (sets fastest lap of race 5 laps after complaining his tires are gone)

Everytime^
Mercedes's Trademarked Sandbags™

Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
Wow it just got really technical in here
? ? ?
 

hans611

Lost
They won't be messing with active splitters, ever. At least until regs change. Active aero is 100%, strictly illegal, unless it's the highly-regulated DRS.
You're right about the tire minimally affecting airflow over the rest of the car. Not sure if that rises to the category of active aero, so I don't think teams will be able to use that as a claim. They would have to prove that it gives the team an aero advantage. I really doubt it does, though.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I want the 2021 regs to let the cars follow so closely that they're able to do away with DRS altogether.

Yeah, the slight toe change would alter airflow... Technically changing the toe could alter the aero outwash, obviously minimally, but could be a point of contention for the other teams...

"They are using the toe change to increase outwash in the corners to gain more rear end downforce (the airflow from the front end doesn't mess with the sidepods/floor/rear) and in the straights they dial back the outwash to lower drag (less effective frontal area)"

But there is soooo many things done that are in the grey area with "Movable Aero" in F1 that idk if it will stick... The entire cars are an active wing, all of them have complicated hydraulic suspension systems that encourage the car to squat and lower its angle of attack at high speed while raising the rear at slow speeds, putting the front wing closer to the ground and getting that sweet sweet ground effect...

Also all the wings themselves flex considerably, as the speed increase, their angle of attack drops..... Or the steering lowering the ride height (ground effect) as the steering angle is higher (more for the tight / slow corners)

Honestly they should have allowed active suspension in 2021, I really wanted that, it would have solved a lot of problems... The weight penalty would have been a deal breaker..... the solution would have been to drop the PU and go back to simple N/A engine, literally hand them the 2006 V8 2.4L rules again and pretend 2014 didnt happen... But we all know that wont happen, also honestly too much has been spend and the tech is really impressive..

What I do like about the cars is their starting weights, only 100kg of fuel in the 746kg min weight (They raised it again this year, many excuses, mainly weight compensation adding a secondary O2 sensor after the Ferrari protests last year) ... Compared to the V8s with MGUKs and no refueling, something like 150kg of fuel with a 640kg min weight, the cars would have almost 25% of their weight be fuel at the start....

Supposedly DRS will be dropped for 2021...

Edit: This DAS is one of the most interesting little greay area loopholes in recent memory... Other ones that pop to mind are Mclarens 3rd break pedal (only actuated the rear, to help the car rotate in slow/mid corners) and the F-duct (would stall the rear wing and lower drag).... Or Benneton's Traction Control.. That one is really good, very good read:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rotational-inertia-led-traction-control-willem-toet
 
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BoostedVW11

Drag Racing Champion
I'm of the opposite opinion. I want the 2021 regs to let the cars follow so closely that they're able to do away with DRS altogether.
I respect your opposing opinion and actually if removing DRS was an option i would fully support your position as well. Its just too hard for cars to overtake without it and even with it ...its too hard to break the aero wake behind the lead car to even use it.

You ever watch indy car series? Their cars are much more "raw" and driver oriented . The lack of aero and grip makes it more exciting imo.
 

torga

Autocross Champion
But there is soooo many things done that are in the grey area with "Movable Aero" in F1 that idk if it will stick... The entire cars are an active wing, all of them have complicated hydraulic suspension systems that encourage the car to squat and lower its angle of attack at high speed while raising the rear at slow speeds, putting the front wing closer to the ground and getting that sweet sweet ground effect...

Also all the wings themselves flex considerably, as the speed increase, their angle of attack drops..... Or the steering lowering the ride height (ground effect) as the steering angle is higher (more for the tight / slow corners)
This is true, but there are regulations that restrict teams from abusing this too much. Skid plates on the floor to ensure the car isn't too low at heavy aero loads. Deflection tests that the scrutineers perform to ensure that the front wings and various cantilevered aero elements don't flex outside of spec. The teams aren't allowed to really use flexible aero components to their advantage. Not like some of the neat active aero we're seeing on supercars. I think it was the Ferrari 458 that had a pair of splitters that, IIRC, got pushed down at high speeds and allowed more air to flow ~somewhere~ (I don't remember where).

Honestly they should have allowed active suspension in 2021, I really wanted that, it would have solved a lot of problems... The weight penalty would have been a deal breaker..... the solution would have been to drop the PU and go back to simple N/A engine, literally hand them the 2006 V8 2.4L rules again and pretend 2014 didnt happen... But we all know that wont happen, also honestly too much has been spend and the tech is really impressive..

What I do like about the cars is their starting weights, only 100kg of fuel in the 746kg min weight (They raised it again this year, many excuses, mainly weight compensation adding a secondary O2 sensor after the Ferrari protests last year) ... Compared to the V8s with MGUKs and no refueling, something like 150kg of fuel with a 640kg min weight, the cars would have almost 25% of their weight be fuel at the start....

Supposedly DRS will be dropped for 2021...

Edit: This DAS is one of the most interesting little greay area loopholes in recent memory... Other ones that pop to mind are Mclarens 3rd break pedal (only actuated the rear, to help the car rotate in slow/mid corners) and the F-duct (would stall the rear wing and lower drag).... Or Benneton's Traction Control.. That one is really good, very good read:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rotational-inertia-led-traction-control-willem-toet
What happened to McLaren's 3rd pedal? I forgot exactly why they stopped using it. Ferrari's F-duct was deemed unsafe, since it had to be enabled by the driver's hand.
Nice, I'm glad DRS is supposed to be dropped. It always felt a bit artificial. It was a nice strategy element, and drivers could let their dogfights culminate in a DRS zone. But I wanna see more creativity in overtakes.

The hybrid V6 tech is really, really good. I'm glad they went that route. However, I do miss those angry, screaming V10s and V8s. Those were some guttural, extreme sounds that may never be reached or replicated again in F1. But the new PUs are better, as a whole unit.

I respect your opposing opinion and actually if removing DRS was an option i would fully support your position as well. Its just too hard for cars to overtake without it and even with it ...its too hard to break the aero wake behind the lead car to even use it.

You ever watch indy car series? Their cars are much more "raw" and driver oriented . The lack of aero and grip makes it more exciting imo.
Can't say that I watch Indy. I was only interested a couple of years ago since Alonso was trying to win it. I heard he's trying again, and wanting to race a full season. Wouldn't that be insane if he won the INDY car championship? That would take the Triple Crown to a ridiculous level. One F1 WDC, one WEC WDC and one INDY WDC.
 
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