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Search for RWD Track/Weekend Car (70k Budget)

Thumper

Autocross Newbie
Good points about the MT! The Fiat 124 Spider is a cool little car. Not sure if you saw the Grand Tour episode where Richard Hammond featured the car. He seemed to really like it.

Yup, that's what I was referring to. (y)


I don't think you're gaining anything by downshifting to second on virtually any road course, particularly when these cars make so much power in the mid range. Even at Road Atlanta turn 7, which is fairly slow for a road course, I'm in third; if I downshifted to second I'd have to upshift again before I've straightened out the car.

You would be wrong, take a look at High Plains in CO, heck try out Pueblo in CO as well. Topeka in KS has some nice 2nd gear zones in the last 2-3 turns. You will NOT post a decent lap time at those courses without using 2nd at least once in open track conditions.

Not to mention you are talking about best case scenario/clear track. What about when you are in traffic setting up for a pass on a slower car? That MILLISECOND blip from 3rd down to second to grab some engine breaking without upsetting the car and then MILLISECOND back to 3rd on the unwind power up and MILLISECOND up to 4th as you spool into the straight.......trust me, it adds up lap after lap after lap. It gives you more options to ever changing traffic in addition to shaving seconds off lap times just from being not just in the power band somewhere, but in the power ZONE every single second of the lap.

Trust me, you put two drivers of equal skill and the DSG will win every lap. Give a DSG to a slower driver and he or she will close the gap to the higher skilled in the MT every lap. Probably even close to side by side.
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
You would be wrong, take a look at High Plains in CO, heck try out Pueblo in CO as well. Topeka in KS has some nice 2nd gear zones in the last 2-3 turns. You will NOT post a decent lap time at those courses without using 2nd at least once in open track conditions.

Not to mention you are talking about best case scenario/clear track. What about when you are in traffic setting up for a pass on a slower car? That MILLISECOND blip from 3rd down to second to grab some engine breaking without upsetting the car and then MILLISECOND back to 3rd on the unwind power up and MILLISECOND up to 4th as you spool into the straight.......trust me, it adds up lap after lap after lap. It gives you more options to ever changing traffic in addition to shaving seconds off lap times just from being not just in the power band somewhere, but in the power ZONE every single second of the lap.

Trust me, you put two drivers of equal skill and the DSG will win every lap. Give a DSG to a slower driver and he or she will close the gap to the higher skilled in the MT every lap. Probably even close to side by side.
I’ll just take your word for it and walk away from this. It’s clear that you‘re the expert who knows everything, no point in continuing in what I thought was light conversation.
 

jay745

track sl00t
I’ll just take your word for it and walk away from this. It’s clear that you‘re the expert who knows everything, no point in continuing in what I thought was light conversation.
Heh there's just an assumption that nobody knows how to drive manual properly, some heel toe practice combined with left foot braking goes a long way. I dont think there's a huge advantage to dsg either honestly.
 

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
Yup, that's what I was referring to. (y)




You would be wrong, take a look at High Plains in CO, heck try out Pueblo in CO as well. Topeka in KS has some nice 2nd gear zones in the last 2-3 turns. You will NOT post a decent lap time at those courses without using 2nd at least once in open track conditions.

Not to mention you are talking about best case scenario/clear track. What about when you are in traffic setting up for a pass on a slower car? That MILLISECOND blip from 3rd down to second to grab some engine breaking without upsetting the car and then MILLISECOND back to 3rd on the unwind power up and MILLISECOND up to 4th as you spool into the straight.......trust me, it adds up lap after lap after lap. It gives you more options to ever changing traffic in addition to shaving seconds off lap times just from being not just in the power band somewhere, but in the power ZONE every single second of the lap.

Trust me, you put two drivers of equal skill and the DSG will win every lap. Give a DSG to a slower driver and he or she will close the gap to the higher skilled in the MT every lap. Probably even close to side by side.

DSG is good but it isn't "all that" on the track so you can stop overcompensating the DSG. Take a skilled MT driver and heel toe goes a long way.
 

victorofhavoc

Autocross Newbie
I don't think you're gaining anything by downshifting to second on virtually any road course, particularly when these cars make so much power in the mid range. Even at Road Atlanta turn 7, which is fairly slow for a road course, I'm in third; if I downshifted to second I'd have to upshift again before I've straightened out the car.

But if you have DSG and it can up-shift as fast as it does it certainly wouldn't hurt anything to downshift to second.
It really depends. My local track has two places where 2nd let's me be around 4k rpm where 3rd would have me below the boost threshold. I can also afford to touch 4th gear down a small straight and gain an additional 4mph I stead of bumping the rev limiter. We're talking a tenth here or there overall, not a full second.

I will say though, the tighter gearing of the dsg wants more top end. I constantly think there's too much torque around 2-3k and not enough power past 5k. Is38 with a stock like tune would likely be the best match for the transmission and provide best track experience...
 

victorofhavoc

Autocross Newbie
Lol, topeka is my local track. There's definitely two corners that need 2nd gear, and the very last one is one of them. Turn 6 is the other. Everyone is slow coming out of 6.
 

MrFancypants

Autocross Champion
It really depends. My local track has two places where 2nd let's me be around 4k rpm where 3rd would have me below the boost threshold. I can also afford to touch 4th gear down a small straight and gain an additional 4mph I stead of bumping the rev limiter. We're talking a tenth here or there overall, not a full second.

I will say though, the tighter gearing of the dsg wants more top end. I constantly think there's too much torque around 2-3k and not enough power past 5k. Is38 with a stock like tune would likely be the best match for the transmission and provide best track experience...
I can’t speak for every road course, and Topeka looks like 13 and 14 are on the tighter end. It also sounds like the mk7 DSG has taller gearing that the 6MT mk6. Looking at telemetry of my best lap at Road Atlanta my lowest speed was 43 MPH, downshifting to 2nd sounds like a good idea on paper, but in practice it didn’t actually help and by the time I could be full throttle in third the RPMs were where they’d fall on an upshift.
 

launchd

Drag Racing Champion
2021 Audi RS3 :)

As soon as it's released, my GTI is gone. HURRY UP AUDI!
 

Navi

Autocross Champion
Yup, that's what I was referring to. (y)




You would be wrong, take a look at High Plains in CO, heck try out Pueblo in CO as well. Topeka in KS has some nice 2nd gear zones in the last 2-3 turns. You will NOT post a decent lap time at those courses without using 2nd at least once in open track conditions.

Not to mention you are talking about best case scenario/clear track. What about when you are in traffic setting up for a pass on a slower car? That MILLISECOND blip from 3rd down to second to grab some engine breaking without upsetting the car and then MILLISECOND back to 3rd on the unwind power up and MILLISECOND up to 4th as you spool into the straight.......trust me, it adds up lap after lap after lap. It gives you more options to ever changing traffic in addition to shaving seconds off lap times just from being not just in the power band somewhere, but in the power ZONE every single second of the lap.

Trust me, you put two drivers of equal skill and the DSG will win every lap. Give a DSG to a slower driver and he or she will close the gap to the higher skilled in the MT every lap. Probably even close to side by side.

no, i will not trust you
 

launchd

Drag Racing Champion
Ha, I'd be surprised if the US sees it before 2023. The A3 is 2021 and I'm not sure if we'll get the S3 before 2022.

Crushing my dreams.
 

Thumper

Autocross Newbie
I’ll just take your word for it and walk away from this. It’s clear that you‘re the expert who knows everything, no point in continuing in what I thought was light conversation.

No idea why you're suddenly thin skinned and sulking. I too thought we were in a light and normal discussion. I never claimed to know everything when I merely shared my personal experience in addressing your statements. I DO claim to know that there are many situations from first hand knowledge that 2nd gear is needed for the fastest lap time. That DSG response time allows for quicker lap times in race traffic. I see no reason to withhold or apologize for my personal experience and knowledge.

DSG is good but it isn't "all that" on the track so you can stop overcompensating the DSG. Take a skilled MT driver and heel toe goes a long way.

I drive a manual, have since I was 16 which let's just say was prior to the current millennium by several years. Heel toe is ASSUMED in the comparison to DSG because that's how you drive a manual. There is no point comparing to a person driving a manual granny shifting and cruising in neutral because it's pointless.

However, it's a confusing statement since the point was the speed with which a DSG allows changes and heel toe can not and does not change the speed it takes for a clutch and manual system to complete changes. The best heel-toe driver in the WORLD still has to depress the clutch to disengagement, move the shifter and release. Even with AI level reactions you can not change the physics of the universe and the time it takes for the mechanism to move. Nor the effect that mechanical time and change has on the attitude of the car as it travels out of corners.

Hey, I love driving my manuals and I understand the fun and feeling. But I also live in a factual world that could give a crap about our 'feelings' when it comes to reality.

Now, until you can prove your feelings by showing the same exact driver on the same exact track in the same car one with traditional manual and one with a DSG where he or she can achieve the same lap times all you are doing is throwing a fit.

If you can find that proof I suggest you start a new thread so we can stop thread-jacking and ruining the OPs.
 

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
No idea why you're suddenly thin skinned and sulking. I too thought we were in a light and normal discussion. I never claimed to know everything when I merely shared my personal experience in addressing your statements. I DO claim to know that there are many situations from first hand knowledge that 2nd gear is needed for the fastest lap time. That DSG response time allows for quicker lap times in race traffic. I see no reason to withhold or apologize for my personal experience and knowledge.



I drive a manual, have since I was 16 which let's just say was prior to the current millennium by several years. Heel toe is ASSUMED in the comparison to DSG because that's how you drive a manual. There is no point comparing to a person driving a manual granny shifting and cruising in neutral because it's pointless.

However, it's a confusing statement since the point was the speed with which a DSG allows changes and heel toe can not and does not change the speed it takes for a clutch and manual system to complete changes. The best heel-toe driver in the WORLD still has to depress the clutch to disengagement, move the shifter and release. Even with AI level reactions you can not change the physics of the universe and the time it takes for the mechanism to move. Nor the effect that mechanical time and change has on the attitude of the car as it travels out of corners.

Hey, I love driving my manuals and I understand the fun and feeling. But I also live in a factual world that could give a crap about our 'feelings' when it comes to reality.

Now, until you can prove your feelings by showing the same exact driver on the same exact track in the same car one with traditional manual and one with a DSG where he or she can achieve the same lap times all you are doing is throwing a fit.

If you can find that proof I suggest you start a new thread so we can stop thread-jacking and ruining the OPs.

Where the fuck does feelings come into this bs or what I said? Yes, DSG does shift faster but it can have some issues every now and then. Also, nowadays tuners have flat foot shifting for MT's which allows you to keep your right foot on the accelerator while changing gears. Still not as fast as a DSG but faster than the traditional way of shifting gears.
 
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