Edmunds comparison Si vs. GTI

ConnerrySER04---->I've NEVER had the immediate connection to a vehicle that I had with the GTI test drive I had in February...it was like a syringe full of adrenaline straight to the heart. Little bastard won me over in the first 5 mins.

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Same thing happened to me!!

feel your fast

davis_grad said:

Ummm, consider the source. Expecting a great, in-depth review from Edmunds is like opening a bottle of Welches grape juice and expecting cabernet. If you want a real review, go to Car and Driver or a similar magazine that employs reviewers that can both write AND drive.

(and yes, I read the review, and yes, the reviewer should go back to reviewing ride-on lawnmowers for lawn and turf monthly, because it is clear that that is the extent of their previous motoring experience)

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no offense, but it seems like you don't spend much time with those magazines either.

C&D and its like are infamously known to be honda/toyota biased. i'm not saying the cars they recommend are bad, but it seems a bit conspicuous to have cars that win 20/24 years. Personally, I wouldn't trust any of them. A review or two is great to get an idea of what you want to testdrive, not what to buy. After all, most people value a nice ass-dyno result over a review by some magazine chumps.

I'm personally interested in both the gti and the si, but i definitely won't pick one or the other until i personally experience both, and see if german engineering can outdo japanese reliability.

Stock GTI is faster , better handling, better brakes , better sound system, better seats, better tires, better everything than stock civic SI . I will race anybody with a stock SI in any kind of race for money, name the Time and place.

Anyone who thinks money isn't involved is on crack. Look at Ford's in the top 10. I like the part that said the brakes were "poor". Makes me wonder if that car had the brake issue I've seen some others talk about.

tydale3 said:

Stock GTI is faster , better handling, better brakes , better sound system, better seats, better tires, better everything than stock civic SI . I will race anybody with a stock SI in any kind of race for money, name the Time and place.

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The only thing I would disagree on is the stock sound system. The Honda doesn't clip out like the GTI's plus they have a standard aux hookup which may not seem like a big deal but after having one it is.

tydale3 said:

Stock GTI is faster , better handling, better brakes , better sound system, better seats, better tires, better everything than stock civic SI . I will race anybody with a stock SI in any kind of race for money, name the Time and place.

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Now there is a professional review!

How much money?

dvsdimsum said:

no offense, but it seems like you don't spend much time with those magazines either.

C&D and its like are infamously known to be honda/toyota biased. i'm not saying the cars they recommend are bad, but it seems a bit conspicuous to have cars that win 20/24 years. Personally, I wouldn't trust any of them. A review or two is great to get an idea of what you want to testdrive, not what to buy. After all, most people value a nice ass-dyno result over a review by some magazine chumps.

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Or maybe the Japanese make really good cars. BTW, C&D favored the GTI over the SI. Given how close the cars seem to be, I would think their "bias" would be easy to hide had they given the win to the SI.

Dyno results are all well and good, but they don't tell you squat about the rest of the car. (they don't even tell you how fast a car is) HP and torque rock, but other things count at least as much. Handling, comfort, style, utility....you get my point.

I've test driven quite a few cars that were "winners" in the mags, but I disagreed. The PT Cruiser won Car of the Year. Just about has the worst seats ever made. Back in 93, the Probe GT was raved over then the very next year they acted like it was old news. Bottom line is what has already been said, you better drive it yourself, heck, you'd be better off if you didn't read the mags so you don't have a bias or expectation when you do.

Slowride said:

Earlier in the article, I read this:

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I didn't read it from the intro. Yes, you are correct that options price is listed in the article.
Thanks for the heads up.

But, that still begs the question. So, they know the GTI has added features, and yet stil make the claim of how much "
more" it costs over the Si, without discussing why that is? And, they are using the larger price difference due to added features?
They even make the claim in the intro of how similar the cars are equipped.

Quote: "Thankfully, for the sake of equity, we were able to acquire both cars in this test with similar equipment."
That's poor reviewing, and shows further bias. I don't mind bias btw, like some do.
Sometimes it's good that the reviewer has strong opinions, but only if used intelligently and they can back up
why they have the bias. This guy didn't quite make it.

I haven't looked, but does the Si really have the added features the GTI came with?

I think the 2 cars are more similar when you compare them as base cars and thus in base price.
If you don't do that then you have to compare features and relative cost, then you get bogged down. If one doesn't want to do that they the comparison shouldn't be used to justify one over the other using the cost difference as a factor, as this article did.

Again, it wasn't a bad review, but falls to the "biased" side as it uses the increased cost difference to make a preference.

GTT said:

But, that still begs the question. So, they know the GTI has added features, and yet stil make the claim of how much "
more" it costs over the Si, without discussing why that is? And, they are using the larger price difference due to added features?
They even make the claim in the intro of how similar the cars are equipped.

Quote: "Thankfully, for the sake of equity, we were able to acquire both cars in this test with similar equipment."
That's poor reviewing, and shows further bias. I don't mind bias btw, like some do...

I haven't looked, but does the Si really have the added features the GTI came with?

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I, for one, am glad that this was a test that was done with a 6 speed manual, sunroof, etc. The GTI has a higher price point for these options, and I don't see that as a problem for the tester to include this. That is just a fact, no matter which car you are "pulling for" in these tests. This is the only way that they could "comparably equip" these vehicles.


The Si comes standard with (for GTT):

Close-Ratio 6-Speed Manual Transmission Standard

Helical Limited-Slip Differential Standard

Power-Assisted Ventilated Front Disc/Solid Rear Disc Brakes 11.8 / 10.2

Wheels 17" Alloys Standard

Driver's and Front Passenger's Seat Belt Reminder Standard

Dual-Stage, Dual-Threshold Front Airbags (SRS) Standard

Side Curtain Airbags Standard

Active Head Restraints Standard

Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) Standard

Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD) Standard

Daytime Running Lights (DRL) Standard

One-Touch Power Moonroof with Tilt Feature Standard

Body-Colored Rear Wing Spoiler Standard

Chrome Exhaust Finisher Standard

Aluminum Shift Knob with Leather Standard

Textured Aluminum Pedals Standard

Steering Wheel-Mounted Controls Cruise/Audio Standard

Fold-Down Rear Seatback 60/40 Split

350-Watt AM/FM/XM Ready®/CD Premium Audio System with 7 Speakers including Subwoofer Standard

MP3/Windows Media™ Audio (WMA) Playback Capability Standard

MP3/Auxiliary Input Jack Standard

XM® Satellite Radio† Navigation models

Welcome Screen/CD Text Display Capability Standard

Speed-Sensitive Volume Control (SVC) Standard

Seems like the standard list is relatively similar. I do like that the review used the 6-sp manual. Adding DSG is an unfair comparison because the SI doesn't have such an option. I still stand by my earlier disagreement with the findings in the review, but it's not that big a deal. By all accounts, these cars are very close in the ratings. It only stands to reason that the SI will be favored by some.

Slowride - just curious - did you get a base model SI and how much did you pay? (if you don't mind me asking) I got a base MKV and paid $21300.

Slowride said:

I, for one, am glad that this was a test that was done with a 6 speed manual, sunroof, etc. The GTI has a higher price point for these options, and I don't see that as a problem for the tester to include this. That is just a fact, no matter which car you are "pulling for" in these tests. This is the only way that they could "comparably equip" these vehicles.


The Si comes standard with (for GTT):

Close-Ratio 6-Speed Manual Transmission Standard

Helical Limited-Slip Differential Standard

Power-Assisted Ventilated Front Disc/Solid Rear Disc Brakes 11.8 / 10.2

Wheels 17" Alloys Standard

Driver's and Front Passenger's Seat Belt Reminder Standard

Dual-Stage, Dual-Threshold Front Airbags (SRS) Standard

Side Curtain Airbags Standard

Active Head Restraints Standard

Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) Standard

Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD) Standard

Daytime Running Lights (DRL) Standard

One-Touch Power Moonroof with Tilt Feature Standard

Body-Colored Rear Wing Spoiler Standard

Chrome Exhaust Finisher Standard

Aluminum Shift Knob with Leather Standard

Textured Aluminum Pedals Standard

Steering Wheel-Mounted Controls Cruise/Audio Standard

Fold-Down Rear Seatback 60/40 Split

350-Watt AM/FM/XM Ready®/CD Premium Audio System with 7 Speakers including Subwoofer Standard

MP3/Windows Media™ Audio (WMA) Playback Capability Standard

MP3/Auxiliary Input Jack Standard

XM® Satellite Radio† Navigation models

Welcome Screen/CD Text Display Capability Standard

Speed-Sensitive Volume Control (SVC) Standard

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I'm sorry Slowride, but since we are already nit picking here I'll add my two cents. :wink:

On top of everything you listed there that the Si has, the GTI has these:

Projector Bi-Xenon HID headlamps with flash-to-pass.

Hidden, retractable electronic headlamp washer in the bumper activated by windshield washers.

Side mirrors with blinkers integrated into them.

225 standard tires vs 215 on the Si.

Anti-theft vehicle alarm system for doors, hood, trunk lid, radio, and starter, with warning LED in door top sill and with audible and visual activation.

Multi-functional trip computer: Featuring trip time, trip length, average trip speed, average trip fuel consumption, current fuel consumption, miles to empty, compass, radio and general audio information display, personalizing functions(note I didn't add temp display because I believe Si has that)

Real aluminum interior trim

10 speakers sound system.

Blinker control stalk with lane-change feature (one tap on the lever creates a 3-blink sequence).

Air-diffuser mounted centrally in dash.

Rear passenger ventilation for heat and A/C mounted in center console.

Key opening & closing feature for power windows.

HBA - Hydralic Brake Assistant on top of EBD.

12.3" front brake rotors, 11.3" rear brake rotors.

ASR - Anti Slip Regulation.

EDL - Electronic Differential Lock.

EBA - Engine Braking Assistant prevents compression-induced skidding in slippery conditions.

Electronic Stabilization Program

Vehicle Warranty 4yr/50,000 miles.

Roadside Assistance 4 yr/unlimited mileage.

*This is before we discuss the overall noise insulation, craftsmanship and exterior & interior material quality. As a long time Honda fan where I took pride in having a higher quality interior than other likes of Nissan and Mitsubishi, I don't think it'd be unfair to do the same here.

Add those up and I don't think the Si can get away with much cheaper than the price of the GTI. I wholeheartedly agree that the Si is a better pure performance machine, but I do not agree that the S is better equipped than the GTI is. They are both more than reasonably equipped for the price they cost, it just depends on what you want. I personally WANTED all the features the GTI had and was more than willing to pay some more money for them.

I paid $20,250 for my Si.

...also, I am not nit picking features, I am simply answering a question as to what the Si has standard.

Slowride said:

I paid $20,250 for my Si.

...also, I am not nit picking features, I am simply answering a question as to what the Si has standard.

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Yeah I know I wasn't calling you nit picking, it was just a referrence. More of a hint that I'm going to nit pick here.

PS I was bored last night so I went to lurk TOV and I THINK I saw you there, although you had a different user name. :smile: