front sway bars

[tigeo]

For daily: upgrade neither, one, both. You probably won’t tell the difference unless you drive the car somewhat on the limit. Def not needed on a daily but you can upgrade whatever you want to achieve the handling characteristics from the above scenarios.

I agree with this comment....so much of the suspension upgrades really don't mean much on a daily basis unless you are at the limit and as much as the hive/bros want to tell you they are....they aren't close on a public road. When I hear folks saying how a RSB really helps on those highway on ramps I think....really?

 

[Nineeightyone]

I agree with this comment....so much of the suspension upgrades really don't mean much on a daily basis unless you are at the limit and as much as the hive/bros want to tell you they are....they aren't close on a public road. When I hear folks saying how a RSB really helps on those highway on ramps I think....really?

edit/disclaimer: I have all the suspension knowledge of a tomato, and the below is pure speculation/guessing at best.

While I think there was a noticable difference in 'feel' when I upgraded my Mz3 RSB to the OEM MS3 one, the 25mm ST RSB didn't give me quite the same degree of noticable change in street driving.

I suspect the larger reason folks opt for the RSB upgrade vs changing rear toe, is that it's a bolt-in option as opposed to something that requires additional measurement/effort/tooling. I'm hopeful to get some plates for DIY toe alignments at home because they're not too expensive, but it's been a pretty low priority for me. Also a valid point is tire wear concerns, though I don't know how much additional wear is induced in relation to changes in toe.

 

[mrmatto]

also a valid point is tire wear concerns, though I don't know how much additional wear is induced in relation to changes in toe.

Indeed, how does toe-out affect tire wear and highway tracking/stability?

 

[mrmatto]

I agree with this comment....so much of the suspension upgrades really don't mean much on a daily basis unless you are at the limit and as much as the hive/bros want to tell you they are....they aren't close on a public road. When I hear folks saying how a RSB really helps on those highway on ramps I think....really?

If you drive like an asshole everywhere you go, it makes a big difference

But seriously, I immediately noticed the change in the car’s feel after a RSB upgrade. It made the back feel more connected and want to follow the front. Even just moderately aggressive driving on some curves (like 5/10 or 6/10) it was noticeable

 

[tigeo]

edit/disclaimer: I have all the suspension knowledge of a tomato, and the below is pure speculation/guessing at best.

While I think there was a noticable difference in 'feel' when I upgraded my Mz3 RSB to the OEM MS3 one, the 25mm ST RSB didn't give me quite the same degree of noticable change in street driving.

I suspect the larger reason folks opt for the RSB upgrade vs changing rear toe, is that it's a bolt-in option as opposed to something that requires additional measurement/effort/tooling. I'm hopeful to get some plates for DIY toe alignments at home because they're not too expensive, but it's been a pretty low priority for me. Also a valid point is tire wear concerns, though I don't know how much additional wear is induced in relation to changes in toe.

Oh for sure. Toe out isn't a great thing for daily driving or highway stability. To me once you start down the path of a track-type alignment, your daily-ability will drop. Taking a daily to the track (or AutoX) is a compromise and to me, keeping a street-type alignment is a better option for most folks.

 

[Nineeightyone]

Oh for sure. Toe out isn't a great thing for daily driving or highway stability. To me once you start down the path of a track-type alignment, your daily-ability will drop. Taking a daily to the track (or AutoX) is a compromise and to me, keeping a street-type alignment is a better option for most folks.

The other thing worth mentioning is that many people have a lot to gain without making sacrifices to daily drivability, at least in the scope of autocross. I love making changes/improvements (debatable lol) to my cars, but if I'm honest with myself, I could save a ton of money by leaving the car alone and getting more seat time in. Changing the car (aside from a good base setup with tires/pads/fluid) is going to net tenths, changing the driver nets seconds.

 

[mrmatto]

The other thing worth mentioning is that many people have a lot to gain without making sacrifices to daily drivability, at least in the scope of autocross. I love making changes/improvements (debatable lol) to my cars, but if I'm honest with myself, I could save a ton of money by leaving the car alone and getting more seat time in. Changing the car (aside from a good base setup with tires/pads/fluid) is going to net tenths, changing the driver nets seconds.

^^^ Wisdom.

If I look back honestly on my first year of autocross, I should have changed fewer things, or at least waited longer to make changes. Making mods and changes after every other event doesn’t leave enough time to re-learn the car and optimize your driving before you change something else. You’re always playing catch-up with your driving to re-learn the new dynamics.

 

[tigeo]

The other thing worth mentioning is that many people have a lot to gain without making sacrifices to daily drivability, at least in the scope of autocross. I love making changes/improvements (debatable lol) to my cars, but if I'm honest with myself, I could save a ton of money by leaving the car alone and getting more seat time in. Changing the car (aside from a good base setup with tires/pads/fluid) is going to net tenths, changing the driver nets seconds.

100%. Stock car. Brake pads/fluid. Tires. Send it.

 

[Nineeightyone]

100%. Stock car. Brake pads/fluid. Tires. Send it.

+ Saw off the mufflers, SCCA Street class allows for it.

 

[jay745]

Good discussion all around. I have a mk6 so it's not a direct comparison but close enough. I didn't notice any negative street harshness from a front sway bar, like everyone else I did the rear first and front shortly after. Then upgraded both front control arm bushings to poly, no real added harsh ess from that either. When I replaced all of the rear bushings with 95a poly and heim joints that's when everything changed and it became a very harsh riding car. Combined with 80a subframe bushing, billet pendulum mount and bfi stage 2 motor/trans mounts it now completely sucks driving on the street. Later went metal on metal camber plates with track coilovers. I love it don't get me wrong for a track car, but really miss the comfort and being able to drive it on the street

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Indeed, how does toe-out affect tire wear and highway tracking/stability?

I think wear and stability gets blown way out of proportion.

I drove an entire season with toe out using a mix of street tires and Autocross tires and never noticed any “additional” wear on the tires.

A day at the track puts way more wear on the tires than street driving can.

Also consider the OEM rear alignment is also fairly toe-in, which is another reason car manufacturers tell you to rotate your tires.

So, run toe-out, rotate your tires if you run a square setup and stop making excuses.

Get out there and experience the magic!

 

[mrmatto]

@GTIfan99 What was your rear toe setting that caused your street tires to wear through on the inside?

 

[mrmatto]

I think wear and stability gets blown way out of proportion.

I drove an entire season with toe out using a mix of street tires and Autocross tires and never noticed any “additional” wear on the tires.

A day at the track puts way more wear on the tires than street driving can.

Also consider the OEM rear alignment is also fairly toe-in, which is another reason car manufacturers tell you to rotate your tires.

So, run toe-out, rotate your tires if you run a square setup and stop making excuses.

Get out there and experience the magic!

Thanks. I don’t think asking questions and seeking to understand is “making excuses.” I’m quite happy with my setup regardless, but I popped into this thread since it’s nice to learn as much as possible to plan a future state.

 

[DevinMK7]

While I appreciate your efforts to help the OP, this claim is full of half-truths and outright false statements.

In autocross, you don't want to decrease grip anywhere if you don't have to.

I know why you say to get a RSB, and some of it is MK7 fanboy love of the RSB being the best first mod, and some of it is stock autocrossing restrictions from days bygone when you could only modify the rear bar.

The truth is, the OEM rear bar is enough to lift the rear tire in a corner, especially with good 200tw tires. A larger rear bar just lifts that tire higher and imposes a greater crushing load on the outside front tire, INCREASING understeer. That front tire already does not have enough negative camber to deal with the normal load of the OEM bar and a bad (safe) OEM alignment.

What is needed, as you eventually point out, is less body roll to reduce camber loss.

So if this is true, why did you recommend a bigger rear bar?

The truth is I don't think you know better, and that's okay as it's never too late to learn new things.

What (G-street) autocrossers should be doing is getting a mild FSB, and using the rear toe as a tool for getting the car to "rotate", not "decreasing grip" to achieve rotation.

I'm in the Street Touring (STH) class and I have both bars and springs AND rear toe out for rotation. You would be amazed how well the car handles slaloms, sweepers, and tight corners.

Good we finally get an autocrosser with experience in here to contribute to the discussion

I agree my general statements are dated by now especially for this platform. I autox with a lot of ppl with older Hondas, and so what works for them certainly cannot be translated over to our cars the same exact way.

With that being said, what size sway bar do you run in the front and rear? Since it sounds like the rear can already be lifted with the stock setup, would you just up both sway bar stiffness by the same (i.e. 26mm front 24mm rear) to keep the balance the same?

Also your experience on toe is interesting, it sounds like the wear and wandering characteristics are not enough to make a huge impact on the street. What is your toe out setting exactly?

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Thanks. I don’t think asking questions and seeking to understand is “making excuses.” I’m quite happy with my setup regardless, but I popped into this thread since it’s nice to learn as much as possible to plan a future state.

I forgot to add this to my post