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Weird Brake Issues

victorofhavoc

Autocross Champion
Location
Kansas City
Thanks again. I did go outer to inner.

Wish I could find a diagram of the VW ABS, not some generic version. I’m just guessing without the insight a diagram would provide.
Before you go chasing down issues for weeks, I'd give it another go without the power bleeder. Just a quick 3 second bleed per caliper and with someone that "knows what they're doing" pressing the pedal... Someone to tell you when the pedal is close to the floor but not on it, in case it just falls the moment you crack a bleeder.
 

nveeser

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
SF CA
So want to bring up the thread again - I have exactly the same question.

I just flushed the brake fluid with Motul RBF 600. I used a schwaben pressure bleeder. When the car if off the pedal is solid.
With the engine running, I am able to slowly push the pedal to the floor. I went back and reflushed ~750ml through the whole system again (closest to farthest). But still not satisfied. Still worried there is air in there.

Did anyone else get resolution?
Any tricks with a pressure bleeder to getting all the air out?
 

StorableComa

Autocross Champion
Location
SoCal, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S FWD
So want to bring up the thread again - I have exactly the same question.

I just flushed the brake fluid with Motul RBF 600. I used a schwaben pressure bleeder. When the car if off the pedal is solid.
With the engine running, I am able to slowly push the pedal to the floor. I went back and reflushed ~750ml through the whole system again (closest to farthest). But still not satisfied. Still worried there is air in there.

Did anyone else get resolution?
Any tricks with a pressure bleeder to getting all the air out?
Did you use 30psi and the correct bleed order?
 

nveeser

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
SF CA
Did you use 30psi and the correct bleed order?

The second time I definitely kept the bleeder at ~30psi and did FL, FR, RL, RR.
And the second time I didn't see a single bubble come out.
So I am wondering if my sense of "this is an air bubble" is actually wrong.

N
 

StorableComa

Autocross Champion
Location
SoCal, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S FWD
The second time I definitely kept the bleeder at ~30psi and did FL, FR, RL, RR.
And the second time I didn't see a single bubble come out.
So I am wondering if my sense of "this is an air bubble" is actually wrong.

N
Could try a post bleed as per the erwin guide:

Post-Bleeding

A second mechanic is required to assist:



Press the brake pedal forcefully and hold.
Open the bleeder valve at the brake caliper.
Press the brake pedal down to the floor.
Close the bleed valve when the brake pedal is pushed down all the way.
Release the brake pedal slowly.
This bleeding procedure must be performed 5 times per brake caliper.

Bleeding sequence:

1- Left front

2 - Right front

3 - Left rear

4 - Right rear

A road test must be performed after bleeding. During this, at least one ABS regulation stop must be performed!
 

tmw2442

Autocross Newbie
Location
Approved NPC storage contanier
Car(s)
Mk7 R
BLUF...if you have bled with a pressure bleeder...and the pedal is good with the car off(not soft and sinking)...my 2 cents...99.mk7 percent you're good...

For good measure with the pressure bleeder attached, use a rubber mallet to gently tap them encouraging any small amount of air left to move

...at this point 10-15 ish psi is probably good, as you have already bled at 30 once (I would only use 20-25 psi, plus (yes...I understand what the service manual says...) if hardcore had a master cylinder or ABS module replaced...and that's probably the why in the way VW says... (MUST purchase 7,000 EURO pressure bleeder, tax properly from the schengen region.........UNT 2.040816326530612 B.A.R. preszzzzuuuuuurrrrrses, UNT notting ELS, vil verk properly...UNT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EX...CEP...TONS..... ZIT is ZI only!!!!!! PRO ceet - chure....).

I just don't trust a 4-5+ year old brake reservoir, master seals, o-rings etc.... that has been heat cycled thousands of times to constantly hold the max psi range most pressure bleeders go to, I would rather not explode or crack a reservoir when I really didnt have a problem in the first place, I just only created a giant headache for myself...not to mention corrosive brake fluid everywhere on paint and the garage....if the concern warranted maybe not...just my thoughts

A CHA...UR...MO person could be stranded in the middle of a desert 100 miles away from anything with no food and water... with a car that is a liter low on oil(but full on fuel)...find a quart magically on the ground...say to the themselves....oh the oil weight is not correct(because the operations manual says VW approved blah w 36.7...only)and a quart is only 947ml, soooo if I added it i would still be 53ml to low to drive it..... guess I am still stranded.

Yes, this is an exaggeration to make a point....but to a certain degree they as a people have this mindset and they as a people propagate it into their products and operations manuals....(Must only be serviced by person, with 7 training program certificates, wearing protective gloves, blue in color, on a Tuesday, at 20 deg C, with a 100 percent charge laptop battery silver in color Lithium chemistry exactly 25 percent recycled materials, and parts overnight from Japan, but not if a Tuesday is on the 13th of the month... then it's schnitzel day... and we are closed....)

I have noticed similar behavior with my R after swapping calipers and bleeding a few times(i had the exact concerns you did initially).....If the pedal is hard with the car off, and behaves normal your probably good to good...IMO

If a forum of car enthusiast are not reporting brake master failures....most likely (not impossible) are randomly not failing with much if any frequency. ...If... I saw a couple threads random thread spread out over months...I would say it's more possible, but not likely....if I saw a thread with 10 percent of the forum reporting it...I would say it's more in the category of likely....

or letting the car sit overnight the pedal changes....(I get in the car in the morning at the pedal is rock hard on first push with the car off, or soft and sinks to the floor...)

During driving the pedal and brakes feel good/normal?

I don't think the majority...even on an internet forum(enthusiast type...can feel) what you are feeling in the pedal. Most 3-4 pumps with a 1/2 sec hold...yep ok...good to good...moving on... :ROFLMAO:

Just a thought...instead of the car being at idle. Try bringing up the rpm to 1500-1800 to get the vacuum pump moving and see if the pedal behavior changes. I think what may be happening is when you are pushing the brake at idle you use up all the vacuum assist for the brakes on the initial push, then as the car builds vacuum up(as you are still pushing the pedal) in the system again slowly, with the same amount of pedal effort(and a little more assist from the car reproducing vacuum.... ), the pedal moves a little more. I think VW designed it that way to get max effort for a single panic stop situation for max assist to the average hairless ape, staring at there idiot screen...panic stopping at highway speed...the engineering/safety minimum (energy abortion capability)from factory for an economy car is one single max effort stop from max vehicle speed without producing damage to the system...

You are using up the vacuum brake assist faster than the car at idle can produce vacuum to keep the system (neg)pressurized...but it doesn't really need to as when you release the pedal it refills in seconds at most....

Also, because of how the parking brake works in these cars...push your pedal to the floor, hold it... and actuate the parking brake a few times...see if your pedal firm-mess changes...

As the rear pads wear(fractions of millimeters) if you are only an gentle brake(r), you will have to perform the procedure again a monthly-ish (been noticing this since the mk5 days...) to minmize rear caliper piston retraction.
 
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