FMIC questions

[swcrow]

So serious question as I've read this quite a bit in the different IC threads I've been reading through - Is it good practice the blow out/flush an IC before install? Seeing as it's a hunk of metal pieces with no moving parts, if cleaned what would be the concern of something dislodging and hurting the turbo/engine?

28+ lbs of boost moves those little pieces pretty far and fast. Not good.

Maybe Baun is tossing a few Benjamins in there and the joke's on the people making fun of his pricing the whole time.

Bingo. I’ll never regret spending what I did for a Baun kit.... never have to worry

 

[StorableComa]

My concern would be what shards are just hanging on in there that will let loose later? Not worth it to save a buck.

I agree, though I would assume if you did a water/fluid flush with some pressure behind it that wouldn't be a concern? I assume fluid would be more likely to break free anything lingering than air when running, but I have nothing to back that up.

Personally i'm leaning toward the BMS stock location replacement IC, though I did read through the whole Magic/Majesty thread and the debate on T&F vs B&P is of interest to me. I merely mentioned the ARM vs ECS as ECS requires slight modification and as far as I'm aware the ARM is 100% bolt on with no modification for the GTI and the 1.8T GSW (Which is what I have).

Though Bauns FMIC with upgraded Radiator/Oil cooler is very interesting, but probably not something for me with my build in mind. If I find another DD and turn this thing into a toy/experiment as I stated earlier, then I'll gladly consider shelling out 700+ to play with the big boys. Right now i'm looking IS20, IC, RSB, mounts/inserts, Forge/BES lift with Alltrack springs all around and Alltrack struts/shocks on the rear, some creature comfort cosmetics, AFE dry drop in with snow guard removal, possibly a Neuspeed "No CEL" DP. Off the shelf Stage 1 inbetween IS20, then probably off the shelf ECU IS20 upgrade and then call it a day. I'd like to mod it to be a fun dad Wagon to play with when i'm alone in the car without breaking the bank or pushing the reliability to the limits. Plus I have all the fun California Smog and Anti-Mod stuff to deal with.

Thanks everyone for the continued discussion, i'm learning quite a bit.

 

[GTI_Owner]

Again, without knowing the conditions, that actually could be fair. If both cars were done back to back and idling during down time, perhaps the stock setup of three heat sinks sandwiched together really is creating Heat Soak Island in there and you're starting out with a thermally challenged system from the get go. Just removing the meat of the heat sandwich (even if it's still there, but not putting out it's own heat) could feasibly see a 30 degree lower starting point, and also allow the entire cooling network to retain better head room through out sustained pulls.

There are a number of high power cars with FMIC, so the constant assumption that any aftermarket stock location is preferable to any fmic seems to have been heavily challenged with real world results. If we were seeing consistent issues with a particular turbo and a particular intercooler, I think we could assume that there were limitations, but again, we're dealing with too many variables. I still hold that oil cooling is a major issue, at least for the GTI without the piddly external cooler the R gets. So if you're comparing an IS38 GTI to a stock R, you're already biasing the outcome just for that alone. I'd greatly prefer to tackle coolant, oil and charge air at the same time, trying to isolate one without addressing the others is sort of like adding a dogbone insert without adding motor or transmission mounts. Oops, currently there.

Are you saying that the engine compartment temperature is in excess of 30 degrees higher with a stock location IC installed? Wouldn't the hood be raised on the dyno with a fan blowing air into the engine compartment?

 

[bentin]

Are you saying that the engine compartment temperature is in excess of 30 degrees higher with a stock location IC installed? Wouldn't the hood be raised on the dyno with a fan blowing air into the engine compartment?

Maybe, but that's what I'm saying, too many variables and unknown conditions. And the fan and hood up creates an ideal situation for determining max power, but wouldn't necessarily be the best approach for determining intercooler effectiveness. The point is that the stock location creates lots of issues, if you're testing, wouldn't it be fair to include them?

It always amazes me when I'm at a track day and people leave their cars idling in the inspection area for twenty to thirty minutes before a session, especially on triple digit days.

 

[Hollywood0220]

All the “back and forth”...

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF):

No Tuning/Manufacturer has ever provided an “unbiased” test vs other designs that didn’t make theirs shine.
Is Coke better than Pepsi? Coca-Cola thinks so.

Purchase by pricing difference, fitment, ease of install, what fits your pocket book, how pretty it is etc. All that is required is Surface Area & Increased Volume. Not too much / Not too little / Just right that compliments your specific set-up for the duration of whatever time the conditions take.
Cars (like life) is a journey and along that journey there are successes and disappointments.

 

[Brian_]

The IC inlet temperature with the OE Upgrade starts out 30 degrees greater than the FMIC, and by the end of the pull is 70 degrees greater! That's the air temperature before it ever gets to the intercooler. A fair test of the intercoolers would control that temperature so it is close for each IC. Disregard that dyno chart because the conditions were not well controlled.

Seems like that disparity is more tied to the design/location of the IC, unless you think they're lying about keeping airbox intake temps to within 2 degrees.

 

[mk6'12gti]

So just heard back from Arm they said they use their "own" core so they arent a genuine vibrant core. Its a copy

 

[GTI_Owner]

Seems like that disparity is more tied to the design/location of the IC, unless you think they're lying about keeping airbox intake temps to within 2 degrees.

If the design/location was driving the temperature up why would the stock and upgraded stock location swap inlet temperature deltas versus the FMIC across the pull? The stock IC starts with an inlet temp 65 degrees higher than the FMIC, the stock upgrade about 35. If the location was the cause that doesn't explain the difference that two ICs in the same location are showing between each other.

I don't think they're lying about the airbox temps, but on the dyno with the hood up I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in air temperature entering the airbox.

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

If the design/location was driving the temperature up why would the stock and upgraded stock location swap inlet temperature deltas versus the FMIC across the pull? The stock IC starts with an inlet temp 65 degrees higher than the FMIC, the stock upgrade about 35. If the location was the cause that doesn't explain the difference that two ICs in the same location are showing between each other.

I don't think they're lying about the airbox temps, but on the dyno with the hood up I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in air temperature entering the airbox.

did they show a bench test of the stock IC VS stock location upgrade also? to compare the pressure drops between the 2? cause if the stock is more restrictive once they are both on the car for the test of the IATS the car will still be shooting for say 18psi at a specific rpm on both setups but the one that's more restrictive will have the wastegate open more causing the compressor to spin faster in order to generate the same pressure and in return will generate more heat out of the turbo outlet. That type of scenario will effect them being able to create the same starting point temperature.

 

[GTI_Owner]

did they show a bench test of the stock IC VS stock location upgrade also? to compare the pressure drops between the 2? cause if the stock is more restrictive once they are both on the car for the test of the IATS the car will still be shooting for say 18psi at a specific rpm on both setups but the one that's more restrictive will have the wastegate open more causing the compressor to spin faster in order to generate the same pressure and in return will generate more heat out of the turbo outlet. That type of scenario will effect them being able to create the same starting point temperature.

The last chart is of pressure drop, it shows about a 0.5 psi maximum difference between the stock and other two ICs.

 

[uberdot]

I third the Baun Performance IC. Have had mine for a year now and you still get raw power even on 96° days.

 

[Brian_]

If the design/location was driving the temperature up why would the stock and upgraded stock location swap inlet temperature deltas versus the FMIC across the pull? The stock IC starts with an inlet temp 65 degrees higher than the FMIC, the stock upgrade about 35. If the location was the cause that doesn't explain the difference that two ICs in the same location are showing between each other.

I don't think they're lying about the airbox temps, but on the dyno with the hood up I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in air temperature entering the airbox.

If they claim it’s same vehicle run in same conditions I’m more likely to believe that the #s are a result of performance differences. Especially since overall despite their marketing spin the test shows that both FM and factory location aftermarket ICs essentially perform the same for IATs, which seems to be the same conclusion most of the anecdotal evidence on the forum suggests.

 

[GTI_Owner]

If they claim it’s same vehicle run in same conditions I’m more likely to believe that the #s are a result of performance differences. Especially since overall despite their marketing spin the test shows that both FM and factory location aftermarket ICs essentially perform the same for IATs, which seems to be the same conclusion most of the anecdotal evidence on the forum suggests.

Just pointing out that trying to explain the results based on information about how the system operates raises questions that have not been answered.

 

[jimlloyd40]

With the exception of investigating an IC to make sure that it does a reasonably good job for the price and fits properly this topic has been beat to death.

 

[GTI_Owner]

ECS FMIC datalog 20-25 over ambient at 16-18 psi.