How to deal with throttle lag / DSG lag on MK7.5 GTI?

[Keehs360]

In racing school I was taught Rev matching downshifts keep the drivetrain in harmony with respect to chassis dynamics. Don’t know if that harmony translates to added mechanical wear and tear!

I’ve learned the same in driving school LOL. Wear and tear also wasn’t discussed

 

[jdiamondGolfMK7]

Yes, the DQ381 is generally less responsive than the DQ250. But the OEM TCU tuning for "S" is worlds better. If I owned a DQ381 GTI, I would literally *never* drive it in 'D' mode. I got identical gas mileage around town in S and D, only had way more enjoyable of a driving experience in S.

Also, if you've never owned a VW DSG before, I strongly suggest the following reading for your pleasure:
https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ho...-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/

Thanks for the tips!

And thanks for all of your input, guys - this is super helpful stuff.
I find this all ironic, because I had always wanted a DSG because I believed that, like a manual, you'd have instant throttle response.

 

[jdiamondGolfMK7]

Thanks for the awesome feedback, everyone. This is absolutely great stuff!

 

[Dog Dad Wagon]

Thanks for the tips!

And thanks for all of your input, guys - this is super helpful stuff.
I find this all ironic, because I had always wanted a DSG because I believed that, like a manual, you'd have instant throttle response.

lol even the Manuals don’t have instant response these days. Factory Drive by wire systems suckkkkk

 

[jdiamondGolfMK7]

Guys, I just read the classic article on gaming the DSG linked above, and it totally explains what's happening to me, and that my common case is the worst possible case.
[https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ho...-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/]

For those that haven't read this, let me summarize:

There's a reason we're often seeing DSG deliver the worst of both worlds instead of the best of both world of an automatic and a stick shift:

To summarize - THERE IS NO TRUE MANUAL SHIFT MODE! To work, the alternate side transmission (clutch? Dunno what to call it) must shift BEFORE you do, so they have automatic control shifting that alternate side transmission in EVERY mode. So even if you are manually paddle shifting, you still have the same issues you had in D -> if you flip a paddle the opposite way the automatic THOUGHT you would, you're hosed.

To solve this, we need manual control over the alternate shifting. One example I think would work well is two stage paddles - you pull them a little bit (a small click) and it shifts the ALTERNATE gear, to be ready for your BIG shift, pulling the paddle the entire way. But that requires different hardware. With just software, I don't have as clean a solution. One idea would be that a quick pull and release of the paddle is a FULL shift, while a pull and HOLD shifts the alternate transmission to get ready for you.

HERE'S WHY I EXPERIENCE THE WORSE CASE SCENARIO ALL THE TIME...

I start out from a light in traffic. I'm gently accelerating with low throttle and low rpms, because there's cars around me. The DSG knows i'm not flooring it, and I'm gradually speeding up, so it does an alternate side shift into a higher gear, anticipating my increasing speed will soon require it. BUT, in that 35-45mph zone, just then, a space opens up in the traffic, and I floor it, wanting a LOWER gear. So FIRST the DSG finishes it's alternate upshift in progress. Then it does a complete alternate downshift. Then it finally does the full shift, engaging the alternate clutch, and then FINALLY, I can accelerate. It's just the worst possible scenario.

In comparison, if we had a way to control the alternate side shift, like I describe above, I could tell the DSG to hold the lower gear while I'm building up speed, just in case I want to downshift. For example, I pull the paddle half back or hold it back while waiting for a space to open up.

But you see the point - it's not just about "bad programming" - there are common situations in which a computer simply can't guess which way you might go, because both ways are very likely scenarios. Probably the best approach there is to just keep the alternate clutch disengaged (in neutral) as a compromise.

 

[Dog Dad Wagon]

Guys, I just read the classic article on gaming the DSG linked above, and it totally explains what's happening to me, and that my common case is the worst possible case.
[https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ho...-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/]

For those that haven't read this, let me summarize:

There's a reason we're often seeing DSG deliver the worst of both worlds instead of the best of both world of an automatic and a stick shift:

To summarize - THERE IS NO TRUE MANUAL SHIFT MODE! To work, the alternate side transmission (clutch? Dunno what to call it) must shift BEFORE you do, so they have automatic control shifting that alternate side transmission in EVERY mode. So even if you are manually paddle shifting, you still have the same issues you had in D -> if you flip a paddle the opposite way the automatic THOUGHT you would, you're hosed.

To solve this, we need manual control over the alternate shifting. One example I think would work well is two stage paddles - you pull them a little bit (a small click) and it shifts the ALTERNATE gear, to be ready for your BIG shift, pulling the paddle the entire way. But that requires different hardware. With just software, I don't have as clean a solution. One idea would be that a quick pull and release of the paddle is a FULL shift, while a pull and HOLD shifts the alternate transmission to get ready for you.

HERE'S WHY I EXPERIENCE THE WORSE CASE SCENARIO ALL THE TIME...

I start out from a light in traffic. I'm gently accelerating with low throttle and low rpms, because there's cars around me. The DSG knows i'm not flooring it, and I'm gradually speeding up, so it does an alternate side shift into a higher gear, anticipating my increasing speed will soon require it. BUT, in that 35-45mph zone, just then, a space opens up in the traffic, and I floor it, wanting a LOWER gear. So FIRST the DSG finishes it's alternate upshift in progress. Then it does a complete alternate downshift. Then it finally does the full shift, engaging the alternate clutch, and then FINALLY, I can accelerate. It's just the worst possible scenario.

In comparison, if we had a way to control the alternate side shift, like I describe above, I could tell the DSG to hold the lower gear while I'm building up speed, just in case I want to downshift. For example, I pull the paddle half back or hold it back while waiting for a space to open up.

But you see the point - it's not just about "bad programming" - there are common situations in which a computer simply can't guess which way you might go, because both ways are very likely scenarios. Probably the best approach there is to just keep the alternate clutch disengaged (in neutral) as a compromise.

Dude you overblow everything. I've been driving DSG cars since 2010 (2011 CC, 2014 JSW TDI, 2015 GTI), and it's not rocket science. Simply put, if you want to upshift, you need to be on the gas. If you want to down shift, you need to tap the brake first to let the DSG know you're not gonna wind out the gear. Those 2 simple guiding principles can be abstracted out to any/every situation.

 

[jimlloyd40]

Guys, I just read the classic article on gaming the DSG linked above, and it totally explains what's happening to me, and that my common case is the worst possible case.
[https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ho...-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/]

For those that haven't read this, let me summarize:

There's a reason we're often seeing DSG deliver the worst of both worlds instead of the best of both world of an automatic and a stick shift:

To summarize - THERE IS NO TRUE MANUAL SHIFT MODE! To work, the alternate side transmission (clutch? Dunno what to call it) must shift BEFORE you do, so they have automatic control shifting that alternate side transmission in EVERY mode. So even if you are manually paddle shifting, you still have the same issues you had in D -> if you flip a paddle the opposite way the automatic THOUGHT you would, you're hosed.

To solve this, we need manual control over the alternate shifting. One example I think would work well is two stage paddles - you pull them a little bit (a small click) and it shifts the ALTERNATE gear, to be ready for your BIG shift, pulling the paddle the entire way. But that requires different hardware. With just software, I don't have as clean a solution. One idea would be that a quick pull and release of the paddle is a FULL shift, while a pull and HOLD shifts the alternate transmission to get ready for you.

HERE'S WHY I EXPERIENCE THE WORSE CASE SCENARIO ALL THE TIME...

I start out from a light in traffic. I'm gently accelerating with low throttle and low rpms, because there's cars around me. The DSG knows i'm not flooring it, and I'm gradually speeding up, so it does an alternate side shift into a higher gear, anticipating my increasing speed will soon require it. BUT, in that 35-45mph zone, just then, a space opens up in the traffic, and I floor it, wanting a LOWER gear. So FIRST the DSG finishes it's alternate upshift in progress. Then it does a complete alternate downshift. Then it finally does the full shift, engaging the alternate clutch, and then FINALLY, I can accelerate. It's just the worst possible scenario.

In comparison, if we had a way to control the alternate side shift, like I describe above, I could tell the DSG to hold the lower gear while I'm building up speed, just in case I want to downshift. For example, I pull the paddle half back or hold it back while waiting for a space to open up.

But you see the point - it's not just about "bad programming" - there are common situations in which a computer simply can't guess which way you might go, because both ways are very likely scenarios. Probably the best approach there is to just keep the alternate clutch disengaged (in neutral) as a compromise.

Just get a DSG tune.

 

[averyislost]

Guys, I just read the classic article on gaming the DSG linked above, and it totally explains what's happening to me, and that my common case is the worst possible case.
[https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ho...-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/]

For those that haven't read this, let me summarize:

There's a reason we're often seeing DSG deliver the worst of both worlds instead of the best of both world of an automatic and a stick shift:

To summarize - THERE IS NO TRUE MANUAL SHIFT MODE! To work, the alternate side transmission (clutch? Dunno what to call it) must shift BEFORE you do, so they have automatic control shifting that alternate side transmission in EVERY mode. So even if you are manually paddle shifting, you still have the same issues you had in D -> if you flip a paddle the opposite way the automatic THOUGHT you would, you're hosed.

To solve this, we need manual control over the alternate shifting. One example I think would work well is two stage paddles - you pull them a little bit (a small click) and it shifts the ALTERNATE gear, to be ready for your BIG shift, pulling the paddle the entire way. But that requires different hardware. With just software, I don't have as clean a solution. One idea would be that a quick pull and release of the paddle is a FULL shift, while a pull and HOLD shifts the alternate transmission to get ready for you.

HERE'S WHY I EXPERIENCE THE WORSE CASE SCENARIO ALL THE TIME...

I start out from a light in traffic. I'm gently accelerating with low throttle and low rpms, because there's cars around me. The DSG knows i'm not flooring it, and I'm gradually speeding up, so it does an alternate side shift into a higher gear, anticipating my increasing speed will soon require it. BUT, in that 35-45mph zone, just then, a space opens up in the traffic, and I floor it, wanting a LOWER gear. So FIRST the DSG finishes it's alternate upshift in progress. Then it does a complete alternate downshift. Then it finally does the full shift, engaging the alternate clutch, and then FINALLY, I can accelerate. It's just the worst possible scenario.

In comparison, if we had a way to control the alternate side shift, like I describe above, I could tell the DSG to hold the lower gear while I'm building up speed, just in case I want to downshift. For example, I pull the paddle half back or hold it back while waiting for a space to open up.

But you see the point - it's not just about "bad programming" - there are common situations in which a computer simply can't guess which way you might go, because both ways are very likely scenarios. Probably the best approach there is to just keep the alternate clutch disengaged (in neutral) as a compromise.

This being my first DSG vehicle, coming from a manual transmission car previously, I get what you’re saying because I’ve experienced that too.
But as has been mentioned, letting off the gas in this situation for a split second will preload the next gear down quickly. So what I do in this exact scenario is:

See a gap open up
Fully let off the gas for a split second
Downshift using the paddle
Back on the throttle
???
Profit

Also, in those scenarios where you don’t feel like doing that, and instead just floor it completely, it’s still *typically* a quicker shift than what could be achieved in a manual trans car.

I’ve not tuned my TCU nor have I driven one tuned but I’m sure that’s even better.

 

[tigeo]

I never have drama with my DSG. I drive it like I stole it at times. Manual mode quite a bit but drive mainly and sometimes use sport. Always hits the gears I want. I never really think about it but maybe I need to see what I do but I *think* I am letting off the gas before downshifting (and sometimes braking) which preloads the lower gear vs. upshifting while accelerating where the upshift is preloaded and bam bam bam! Not sure why this guy is having issues? It jsut requires some attention/adaptation and for folks that have had sticks in the past that require attention to drive, this should be no different.

 

[kevinkar]

Not sure why this guy is having issues? It just requires some attention/adaptation and for folks that have had sticks in the past that require attention to drive, this should be no different.

I think that's the issue some people have. When you're driving a manual transmission, you're in control and you know what you are going to do without fail so your feet, arms and muscles never fail you (unless you somehow select the wrong gear but that's a muscle memory issue.) The DSG is programmed to do something according to a logic diagram and is not necessarily going to do what you might intend because your intent might not match what the DSG is deciding is next. So I see how some people can get "screwed" by what happens.

I've done this on the weekends in a deserted commercial area upshifting, downshifting, braking hard, rounding corners etc. and I've gotten the car to a spot I'd normally downshift and heel/toe into a corner but the car sees I was on the gas right before and is ready to upshift instead but I choose to downshift and suddenly the car and I are out of sync leading to a bog down of momentum. So I have to learn to think more ahead than I would in a traditional manual because I know the DSG is not necessarily going to do what I think it will.

It's that added attention/adaptation that a lot of people just don't yet grasp. I've been driving manuals for 40+ years and no longer get it wrong in a manual since it's second nature now. But the DSG does indeed sometimes want to do something I don't want it to. And unless you drive like a bat out of hell every time you're out, it can be a bit daunting to train yourself for every corner.

It's the difference between second nature in a stick versus trying to think farther ahead and realize what the DSG is likely going to do based on what it thinks you are likely to be doing. It's not always the same thing.

 

[randomhobo130]

I think that's the issue some people have. When you're driving a manual transmission, you're in control and you know what you are going to do without fail so your feet, arms and muscles never fail you (unless you somehow select the wrong gear but that's a muscle memory issue.) The DSG is programmed to do something according to a logic diagram and is not necessarily going to do what you might intend because your intent might not match what the DSG is deciding is next. So I see how some people can get "screwed" by what happens.

I've done this on the weekends in a deserted commercial area upshifting, downshifting, braking hard, rounding corners etc. and I've gotten the car to a spot I'd normally downshift and heel/toe into a corner but the car sees I was on the gas right before and is ready to upshift instead but I choose to downshift and suddenly the car and I are out of sync leading to a bog down of momentum. So I have to learn to think more ahead than I would in a traditional manual because I know the DSG is not necessarily going to do what I think it will.

It's that added attention/adaptation that a lot of people just don't yet grasp. I've been driving manuals for 40+ years and no longer get it wrong in a manual since it's second nature now. But the DSG does indeed sometimes want to do something I don't want it to. And unless you drive like a bat out of hell every time you're out, it can be a bit daunting to train yourself for every corner.

It's the difference between second nature in a stick versus trying to think farther ahead and realize what the DSG is likely going to do based on what it thinks you are likely to be doing. It's not always the same thing.

This exactly. Shifting was second nature with my 6MT. I've had issues with my first DSG when upshifting while accelerating where I get a lag in certain situations. After making my way through this thread it's 100% the way I'm going about throttle/brake input. Definitely going to pay more attention now.

 

[tigeo]

This exactly. Shifting was second nature with my 6MT. I've had issues with my first DSG when upshifting while accelerating where I get a lag in certain situations. After making my way through this thread it's 100% the way I'm going about throttle/brake input. Definitely going to pay more attention now.

I seem to be able to go between a stick and the DSG with no drama. Drove my old daily/now my son's car which is a 5-spd Focus yesterday and man it's fun for sure even though it's pretty slow. To me the DSG is v. intuitive in how it works if you think about how it works as you drive it. When you slow down/downshift in a stick, you let off the gas and/or brake - same in the DSG.

 

[jdiamondGolfMK7]

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'll try letting off the throttle to make it downshift (that's so unintuitive because it's opposite rev matching). I really wish VW published details of the algorithm - it would help.

Just to be clear - when this happens to me (and it's not all the time), it takes FAR longer to shift than I could do in a manual. I can EASILY manually shift in 1 second. In some circumstances with a good gearbox I can upshift in a half second. (Most importantly is that if I needed to suddenly press on the gas, that WOULDN'T BE THE TIME I'D SHIFT. I'd hover in one gear for fast maneuvering.) Whereas the DSG shift sometimes takes many seconds and could be abnormal. It kinda ruins the experience... I do agree with the posts in that if you're just in the situation of a long acceleration over many gears, that's when the DSG algorithm shines, just as it does in race cars, and you don't even have to think about it. And I did try driving other GTIs and didn't notice it.

I was just speculating that another thing that could make this issue more common is if the computer quickly shifts the alternate side clutch after a full shift instead of holding back a few seconds. For example... Say I'm accelerating, and the car JUST shifted from 2-3. In any scenario I'd now be in low RPMs. Say the alternate side clutch immediately starts shifting from 2->4 because I'm accelerating, while I'm still low in RPMs and power. Any attempt to accelerate more now could easily trigger a downshift, but meanwhile the alternate (orignal) side is busy upshifting.... so I take a ticket and wait.


Many thanks to all of you for giving me hope that this just takes a little practice. I hope to adapt my driving style to this and post on how things went. But that manual sure looks good in comparison. I just hope it's not like driving an automatic, where adapting means you have to say "OK, in 2 seconds I plan to accelerate, so I press the gas now while I'm scanning around the car so when I'm ready the acceleration will start..."

 

[Dog Dad Wagon]

if you continue to have issues with this for more than A month after learning how to communicate to the trans what you’re going to do next, I would get it flushed. It may be over or underfilled. Or you have a bad mechatronics unit lol

 

[jimlloyd40]

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'll try letting off the throttle to make it downshift (that's so unintuitive because it's opposite rev matching). I really wish VW published details of the algorithm - it would help.

Just to be clear - when this happens to me (and it's not all the time), it takes FAR longer to shift than I could do in a manual. I can EASILY manually shift in 1 second. In some circumstances with a good gearbox I can upshift in a half second. (Most importantly is that if I needed to suddenly press on the gas, that WOULDN'T BE THE TIME I'D SHIFT. I'd hover in one gear for fast maneuvering.) Whereas the DSG shift sometimes takes many seconds and could be abnormal. It kinda ruins the experience... I do agree with the posts in that if you're just in the situation of a long acceleration over many gears, that's when the DSG algorithm shines, just as it does in race cars, and you don't even have to think about it. And I did try driving other GTIs and didn't notice it.

I was just speculating that another thing that could make this issue more common is if the computer quickly shifts the alternate side clutch after a full shift instead of holding back a few seconds. For example... Say I'm accelerating, and the car JUST shifted from 2-3. In any scenario I'd now be in low RPMs. Say the alternate side clutch immediately starts shifting from 2->4 because I'm accelerating, while I'm still low in RPMs and power. Any attempt to accelerate more now could easily trigger a downshift, but meanwhile the alternate (orignal) side is busy upshifting.... so I take a ticket and wait.


Many thanks to all of you for giving me hope that this just takes a little practice. I hope to adapt my driving style to this and post on how things went. But that manual sure looks good in comparison. I just hope it's not like driving an automatic, where adapting means you have to say "OK, in 2 seconds I plan to accelerate, so I press the gas now while I'm scanning around the car so when I'm ready the acceleration will start..."

Sounds like something is wrong with the DSG. I've never heard of this problem.