Street Touring Hatchback (STH) discussion/setup

[mrmatto]

I'm going to be in STH this year purely because I still have my STH track wheel/tire set from my mk7. But I am eager to see how my stock mk8 does compared to my lightly modded mk7 against the usual STH crew.

Ultimately, my feeling is "mod your car how you want it to be, then class it."

 

[GTIfan99]

I'm going to be in STH this year purely because I still have my STH track wheel/tire set from my mk7. But I am eager to see how my stock mk8 does compared to my lightly modded mk7 against the usual STH crew.

Ultimately, my feeling is "mod your car how you want it to be, then class it."

And unless you're running nationals, who cares? I could find something illegal on every car we ran with last year, including my old car. I drilled to make access for koni adjusters, which is legal, but since that intersected with the strut top hole thingy, not legal.

At least in our region, no one really cares about stuff like that.

Technically, you're old IC wasn't legal, but who cares? It was in the spirit of the rules and I think in the case of STH, an IC is an IC, is an IC.

 

[mrmatto]

And unless you're running nationals, who cares? I could find something illegal on every car we ran with last year, including my old car. I drilled to make access for koni adjusters, which is legal, but since that intersected with the strut top hole thingy, not legal.

At least in our region, no one really cares about stuff like that.

Technically, you're old IC wasn't legal, but who cares? It was in the spirit of the rules and I think in the case of STH, an IC is an IC, is an IC.

Yeah, all good points. If someone does something illegal that gives them an advantage, that's one thing. But like my FMIC was illegal because I had to remove some plastic trim pieces to install it. Zero advantage to that. I think one of the guys in STH at one point had some aftermarket spoiler lip that technically wasn't legal but it didn't help him either. Who cares.

 

[krs]

If you're slow, nobody will contest you. It's not until you're fast do people pay attention.

But still, I'd prefer to race against others who at least try and follow their class rules.

 

[GTIfan99]

If you're slow, nobody will contest you. It's not until you're fast do people pay attention.

But still, I'd prefer to race against others who at least try and follow their class rules.

Locally for us, no one cares. Unless you swapped a turbo, meh.

All the cars locally had one or so no advantage item and we don't knit pick in STH, but none fully prepared to the class limits. It all comes out even. We had 3 or 4 different cars win in the class last year.

We try to follow the spirit, not the letter, locally.

 

[DerHase]

That's why I was thinking TTRS. Or the 034 and their ball joints.

034 LCAs maybe. Ball joints no.

Fuckton of bump steer and just found out one of mine has play after ~2000mi and 3 days on track. Boots are also already dry rotted - granted that is likely from running sans-backing-plates.

OEM ball joints had zero issues over 60k, and the other ~20 days on track.

 

[GTIfan99]

034 LCAs maybe. Ball joints no.

Fuckton of bump steer and just found out one of mine has play after ~2000mi and 3 days on track. Boots are also already dry rotted - granted that is likely from running sans-backing-plates.

OEM ball joints had zero issues over 60k, and the other ~20 days on track.

I'll be running backing plates. Some of the reviews for the 034 ball joints are saying they got -1 camber from just the ball joints.

What did you see? I'm skeptical, but if true, that's a cheap and easy way to get negative camber.

 

[krs]

I'll be running backing plates. Some of the reviews for the 034 ball joints are saying they got -1 camber from just the ball joints.

What did you see? I'm skeptical, but if true, that's a cheap and easy way to get negative camber.

Cheap and easy usually ends up with a terrible itch, or paying more down the road.

 

[GTIfan99]

Cheap and easy usually ends up with a terrible itch, or paying more down the road.

It's a simple enough concept though.

You have to either do camber plates or longer arms.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

It's a simple enough concept though.

You have to either do camber plates + Lower offset ball joints, or longer arms.

Fixed it for you

 

[GTIfan99]

Fixed it for you

I know I can do camber plates and offset LCA bushings, but I would think ball joints and camber plates at the same time would be a no go, altering camber in two different ways.

I'd assume the ball joint is considered part of the lca assembly.

 

[DerHase]

I'll be running backing plates. Some of the reviews for the 034 ball joints are saying they got -1 camber from just the ball joints.

What did you see? I'm skeptical, but if true, that's a cheap and easy way to get negative camber.

Yeah it adds like 1.0-1.2 deg camber.

I'm sitting at -3.7 deg up front with 034 lowering springs, 034 camber plates, and the ball joints. And the car is worse than OEM springs with just the camber plates + offset LCA bushings.

For autocross only the bump steer is probably manageable. I'm actually going to be running them this weekend before taking them off.

But the amount of bump steer is BAD. Like you gain -0.50 deg of toe out PER SIDE in only 1in of bump travel.

Every single time you hit any kind of bump, your toe is going absolutely wild.


Plain and simple you cannot do roll center correction without also addressing bump steer. Adding camber alone is great (and is why I bought them in the first place). I was hoping the bump steer wouldn't be too bad. But it's fucking awful.

While I've not measured it out just yet, due to the angle of the ball stud in our knuckles, as you extend roll center with the ball joints it also screws with ackerman. Essentially steering the inside tire further than it should to align with the outside tire vs the rear axle centerline.

Hitting the outside curb in T10 at VIR essentially self-steers the entire car back to the left.

I've not used their lower control arms, but those supposedly give the same -1.2 deg of camber. And will be without fucking the rest of the geometry up.

 

[GTIfan99]

Yeah it adds like 1.0-1.2 deg camber.

I'm sitting at -3.7 deg up front with 034 lowering springs, 034 camber plates, and the ball joints. And the car is worse than OEM springs with just the camber plates + offset LCA bushings.

For autocross only the bump steer is probably manageable. I'm actually going to be running them this weekend before taking them off.

But the amount of bump steer is BAD. Like you gain -0.50 deg of toe out PER SIDE in only 1in of bump travel.

Every single time you hit any kind of bump, your toe is going absolutely wild.


Plain and simple you cannot do roll center correction without also addressing bump steer. Adding camber alone is great (and is why I bought them in the first place). I was hoping the bump steer wouldn't be too bad. But it's fucking awful.

While I've not measured it out just yet, due to the angle of the ball stud in our knuckles, as you extend roll center with the ball joints it also screws with ackerman. Essentially steering the inside tire further than it should to align with the outside tire vs the rear axle centerline.

Hitting the outside curb in T10 at VIR essentially self-steers the entire car back to the left.

I've not used their lower control arms, but those supposedly give the same -1.2 deg of camber. And will be without fucking the rest of the geometry up.

I'm going to be on stock springs, so likely won't be as much of an issue. I'll watch the boots, but I'll keeping heat shields too.

Anyone have a good source for titanium shims for the front brakes? I'm going to beat on the stock brakes for awhile this time.

 

[DerHase]

I'm going to be on stock springs, so likely won't be as much of an issue. I'll watch the boots, but I'll keeping heat shields too.

Anyone have a good source for titanium shims for the front brakes? I'm going to beat on the stock brakes for awhile this time.

You're mis-interpreting that chart. It's still absolutely terrible at stock ride height.

Your toe is still changing by just shy of 1.2 full degrees (not 0.12) from +1.5 to -1.5in of wheel travel. Per side.

Never needed titanium brake shims. Ferodo DS3.12s put up with the heat and fluid problems aren't an issue until the friction material is below the thickness of the backing plate (at which point I retire the pads as spares). They last 12-14 days on track before they get down to that thickness. The Ferodos come with a shim on the back side which seems to help. You can see the temp indicating paint showing way hotter on the backside of the pad itself vs on the shim:

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/brakes/ppbrakeprep

 

[GTIfan99]

You're mis-interpreting that chart. It's still absolutely terrible at stock ride height.

Your toe is still changing by just shy of 1.2 full degrees (not 0.12) from +1.5 to -1.5in of wheel travel. Per side.

View attachment 301893


Never needed titanium brake shims. Ferodo DS3.12s put up with the heat and fluid problems aren't an issue until the friction material is below the thickness of the backing plate (at which point I retire the pads as spares). They last 12-14 days on track before they get down to that thickness. The Ferodos come with a shim on the back side which seems to help. You can see the temp indicating paint showing way hotter on the backside of the pad itself vs on the shim:

View attachment 301896

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/brakes/ppbrakeprep

Was the bump steer noticeable to you while driving?