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The Si May be a Contender...

DougDome

Go Kart Champion
LOL not MY 2012, but I think this Wall Street Journal article summarizes it perfectly. Honda is better at countering the benchmark than being the benchmark. The author says to expect a completely redesigned civic by the end of 2012 to catch up with the huge influx of new sporty compact contenders.

Think the new one will have a blower? I think so.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...6639391879623856.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Autos

For those who can't access the article:
And just like that, a giant stumbles. The redesigned 2012 Honda Civic—one of the most successful cars in U.S. auto history, a nameplate burnished with the grateful tears of generations of Americans—is a dud. A sham. A shud. Massive fail, LOL.

Civic's U.S. sales were down 26% in September and 15.6% year-to-date, a cratering rivaled only by the 15.7% decline registered by the Honda Accord. Some part of the losses was caused by supply-chain issues associated with the April earthquake; the greater part, surely, is bad press. The Civic sedan/coupe recently got scratched off the Consumer Reports list of Top Five recommended cars—which for Honda is like getting your name scratched off the frontispiece of the family Bible.


Dan Neil on The News Hub reviews the redesigned 2012 Honda Civic and explains why it's a dud despite being one of the most successful cars in U.S. auto history.

Over at the Honda fan site vtec.net they're in the midst of a high-tech Spanish Inquisition, with John Mendel, American Honda's executive vice president for sales, as guest of honor. It ain't pretty.

I've just spent two weeks enjoying the company of the 2012 Civic Hybrid sedan (see sidebar) and the Si sedan—the sport-tuned version with a 201-hp four-banger, a limited-slip differential, and a six-speed manual gearbox to slap around—and, to damn them with faint praise, they're actually pretty good cars. Still, they do not burn with Honda's once-routine overachievement, and the ire the company faces reflects the high expectations and great trust consumers have placed with the brand. In other words, merely decent feels like a betrayal from Honda.

What's going on with these cars? I have a theory.

Photos: A Giant Stumbles

View Slideshow

Honda
I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's great line: "They sicken of the calm who knew the storm." The Civic redesign is complacent, and Honda execs couldn't help but know it. The exterior styling changes are so subtle as to be subliminal: some character lines here and there, a narrowed stare from upswept headlamps, a slightly more rakish windshield. The dash and instrument console has a more organic shape to it, but the layout is incoherent, with the driver's side air vents looking like they belong in a different car than those on the right. Civic meanwhile doubles down on a couple of the previous generation's more unloved qualities. The split-level instrument design now includes an even wider horizontal display under a larger binnacle on the cowl, at the base of the windshield, this to accommodate the new i-MID (Intelligent Multi-Informational Display). And even though Honda has gotten an earful about the Civic's exuberant sprays of cheap-feeling plastic, the new Civic has even more.

The question is, why? Is it simply that Honda is going through a spell of reckless profit taking?

I have a theory. Honda might be one of those organizations for which incumbency doesn't sit well. Most cars—indeed, most products—are designed and engineered in a process of benchmarking, in which product planners evaluate their competitor's products and then attempt to exceed them in measurable ways. Perhaps, at a genetic level, Honda is better at benchmarking others than being the benchmark, better at catching up than being caught, counter-punching than punching.

Car companies are hive brains, with their own psychologies and Jungian shadow aspects. With the mediocre Civic, self-sabotage is not unthinkable.

Crazy, right? Surely I'm overthinking it. And yet, this month rumors surfaced that Honda was rushing forward a drastic redesign of the Civic, with better interior materials and more aggressive styling. According to this buzz, the redesigned car will break cover in late 2012, less than two years after the current design debuted and a couple of years ahead of a regularly scheduled midmodel facelift. Right now, everybody from the janitor on up is in full-crisis, warrior mode.

2012 Honda Civic Si Sedan With Navigation

Price as tested: $24,675
Powertrain: Naturally aspirated 2.4-liter, 16-valve DOHC four cylinder with variable valve timing; six-speed manual transmission; front-wheel drive with helical-type limited-slip differential
Horsepower/torque: 201 hp @7,000 rpm/170 pound-feet at 4,300 rpm
Length/weight: 175.5 inches/2,900 pounds (est.)
0-60 mph: <7 seconds
EPA fuel economy: 22/31 mpg, city/highway
Cargo capacity: 11.7 cubic feet
I'm telling you, these people are more comfortable under the gun.

Another factor is, of course, the competition, which only seems to get better and faster every month. The Hyundai Elantra is a terrific car, as is the Ford Focus. Across the compact segment, interior refinement and materiality is up; exterior styling is growing more sophisticated; direct-injection engines, turbochargers and six-speed automatics are becoming baseline expectations. In this march of excellence, Honda's delay of the Civic redesign in 2010 only gave its competitors a head start.

The news isn't all bad, of course. The Si sedan receives a bigger engine for 2012, a 2.4-liter replacing the 2.0-liter. While horsepower is up only about 4%—to 201 hp—the torque is up 22% and is available lower on the rev counter (170 pound-feet at 4,300 rpm). What that means is that you don't have to wind the engine out to eight grand to extract maximum performance. There's an asterisk, however: Some Civic Si fans like the sound of a screaming VTEC engine.

Thanks in part to its 2,900-pound curb weight, the Si sedan gets off the line nicely—0-60 mph in about 7 seconds—and also returns good fuel economy (22/31, mpg, city/highway), so it's both quicker and more fuel-efficient than the previous Si. But it takes premium gasoline. Oof.

Some of the Si traditions are well observed. The electric-assist steering is tight and responsive with quite good feedback through the small-diameter steering wheel. The short-throw six-speed manual gearbox continues to be a gear-rower's delight, though the clutch pedal throw could be a bit heavier.

In some ways the Si is frustrating to drive hard. It feels like the suspension—front struts and rear multilinks—is plainly under-sprung. The balance of the car is quite good, but it gathers up a lot of body roll in corners. Also, the all-season tires give up the cornering fight pretty early, with loads of sidewall deflection. Some racy tires and aftermarket suspension tuning would transform the handling of this car.

Except then, you'd want more horsepower, and the Si hasn't got any to spare. It does have some interesting lights in the console to let you know you've hit the rev limiter, however.

Is this Honda's best effort? No, not by a nautical mile. But the Civic is too good a nameplate, and Honda too good a company, to stay on the canvas for long.

They like a good fight? They've got one.
 

MBorVW

Go Kart Champion
I was extremely disappointed by the new Civic as soon as I saw the pics of the near production car...it is a mess. Nothing sporty or even attractive about it!!! I had one of the very first 2006 Civic SI coupes in late 2005 and adored that car. The high-reving engine and slick 6-speed was so much fun to drive...until I hydroplaned into the next lane on the interstate and was rear-ended. No traction/stability control on that car... When I was thinking about going back to a sport compact I wanted to like the new SI but I couldn't get over how ugly it was all around. Honda will lose millions on that design!
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer

grambles423

Automotive Engineer
government bailout?

Nope. We're pretty resilient when it comes to this kind of mess and fortunately are small enough of a company to keep chugging along. From what I hear, and this is alllllll sepculation (I'm not really in the loop), they have some good things cooking up at R&D.

I sure hope so that some of the rumors that float around here are actually true. Because if so, I would guess Honda would put itself back on top in the next decade.

As for performance, I really hope they change their ways.
 

DougDome

Go Kart Champion
in the 2012 Si they have a 2.4l 4 banger... who's to say that they're not going to throw a turbo on top? I think that would completely destroy the MS3 and bring a lot of people back to Honda.

turbo+vtec+9k rpm's= fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
 

grambles423

Automotive Engineer

danielj1

Go Kart Champion
I wonder how many of those lost Civic sales went to the Elantra.
 

maxtdi

Go Kart Champion
I wonder how many of those lost Civic sales went to the Elantra.

New Focus
Cruze (best selling car in the world atm)
Elantra

All those took a solid piece of sales out of the civic.

The new civic is just a mediocre car, it doesn't stand out in any dimension. Honda/Toyota turned into GM/Ford of the 90s, turning up mediocre cars that don't stand out and lose market share year over year.
 

corrado917

Go Kart Champion
The Glorious Vtech era is somehow gone,at least in the way it was known before.Nowdays is not enough, unpractical to have your car kicking at 9k RPM while everyone is kicking you with a turbo 4 banger,it is not even enough to have a real LSD while every carmaker is tweaking electronics to mimic "FairlyGood" that function,Honda/Acura was never known for droolin' interiors either:I do really miss the times when An integra type R was a nice car to have,but if they want to keep buyers(Not only MPG but something more organic:power with TQ included) they have to hear them;They have a strong challenge and need to raised the bar like everyone did(GTI),a factory turbo powered car would be a nice approach to begin with...
 
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PandaGTI

Go Kart Champion
Here's an offshoot,

One of the Civic's that Honda is displaying at SEMA has a big turbo pushing 400 whp if memory serves me right... Maybe someone can look into it.

Why this is significant? Because Honda is trying to demonstrate how over built their engines are that they can run such a big turbo with no durability issues... I dunno if it's stock internals or built, but if stock and it holds up to the abuse in both drag races and track days... From an enthusiast standpoint that mods that is significant... It's good to have an overbuilt engine for the enthusiasts that want to push the limits.
 

maxtdi

Go Kart Champion
400whp in a nearly stock honda 4 banger? :laugh: That's a good one.

putting down 200-250 after the turbo etc is about all one should do before starting to blow shit up. In either the 1.8 or 2.0. The "new" 2.4 can probably handle closer to 300 but no where near 400.

Besides WTF can you do with 400 wrong wheel drive HP?
 
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