Ukraine: WAR Huh - What Is It Good For Absorootly Nothing

[Unreal1]

comes in.

posts Russian propaganda.

Everything I said is fact and verified with western sources. Unless Russia controls the BBC, TheNation.com, ForeignPolicy.com, or BusinessInsider.com, then it's not Russian propaganda.

uses strawman fallacy to paint a picture of the Ukrainian government and Nazi somehow being related.

The Azov didn't appoint their selves to the army. Someone within the Ukrainian government made them part of their National Guard.

says "Nazi's are bad" ,a given, and something that makes his point seem valid when he's already said the Russian propaganda line of Ukraine = Nazi.

You're full of shit. I provide sources and fact, you can only respond with ad hominem bullshit.

Stop acting like you don't know what you're doing. If you're going to spread Russian bullshit at least be a man about it and own up to what you're trying to do, instead of hiding behind obvious statements like "Nazi's are bad" like a spineless child. I would at least have a modicum of respect for admitting your beliefs, not hiding behind bullshit arguments.

We know Nazis are bad, no-one disagrees with that. We're saying Nazis and the Ukrainian government have nothing to do with each other.

I hope this isn't coming from a liberal cuck. It's not an argument over whether Nazis are bad, the argument is whether they should be accepted into NATO as-is. The problem is you lack the mental capacity to approach complex issues with any sort of nuance. My argument isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be, it's not one extreme or the other. Try not to be a simpleton and you may surprise yourself with what you're able to comprehend.

Yes, the Ukrainian government is responsible for having a Nazi battalion in their army. Who else would be responsible for making them an official part of the National Guard? Maybe Putin made that decision!? Yes, they are self-avowed Nazis who have been found guilty of rape and other war crimes. Yes, they do run nationalist youth camps. These are all indisputable facts no matter how much you try to deflect. That however does not mean I don't understand the situation they're in. It doesn't mean the entire country are Nazis. It simply means they need to get rid of the Nazi battalion (for what I hope would be obvious reasons but apparently not) if they want to join NATO.

You guys are literally up in arms over the removal of a Nazi battalion.

 

[Corprin]

Everything I said is fact and verified with western sources. Unless Russia controls the BBC, TheNation.com, ForeignPolicy.com, or BusinessInsider.com, then it's not Russian propaganda.



The Azov didn't appoint their selves to the army. Someone within the Ukrainian government made them part of their National Guard.



You're full of shit. I provide sources and fact, you can only respond with ad hominem bullshit.



I hope this isn't coming from a liberal cuck. It's not an argument over whether Nazis are bad, the argument is whether they should be accepted into NATO as-is. The problem is you lack the mental capacity to approach complex issues with any sort of nuance. My argument isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be, it's not one extreme or the other. Try not to be a simpleton and you may surprise yourself with what you're able to comprehend.

Yes, the Ukrainian government is responsible for having a Nazi battalion in their army. Who else would be responsible for making them an official part of the National Guard? Maybe Putin made that decision!? Yes, they are self-avowed Nazis who have been found guilty of rape and other war crimes. Yes, they do run nationalist youth camps. These are all indisputable facts no matter how much you try to deflect. That however does not mean I don't understand the situation they're in. It doesn't mean the entire country are Nazis. It simply means they need to get rid of the Nazi battalion (for what I hope would be obvious reasons but apparently not) if they want to join NATO.

You guys are literally up in arms over the removal of a Nazi battalion.

comes in.

posts Russian propaganda.

uses strawman fallacy to paint a picture of the Ukrainian government and Nazi somehow being related.

says "Nazi's are bad" ,a given, and something that makes his point seem valid when he's already said the Russian propaganda line of Ukraine = Nazi.

Stop acting like you don't know what you're doing. If you're going to spread Russian bullshit at least be a man about it and own up to what you're trying to do, instead of hiding behind obvious statements like "Nazi's are bad" like a spineless child. I would at least have a modicum of respect for admitting your beliefs, not hiding behind bullshit arguments.

We know Nazis are bad, no-one disagrees with that. We're saying Nazis and the Ukrainian government have nothing to do with each other.

One member already banned.

Please take the pissing match to the cesspool. We all agree Nazis are bad, moving on.

Was watching a completely unrelated YouTube video and the contributor added a comment that he has a list of all the Ukrainian equipment and aircraft, and where they were destroyed/captured. He states nothing is left. I don’t know the validity of the comments, but an interesting notion.

 

[Unreal1]

One member already banned.

Please take the pissing match to the cesspool. We all agree Nazis are bad, moving on.

Was watching a completely unrelated YouTube video and the contributor added a comment that he has a list of all the Ukrainian equipment and aircraft, and where they were destroyed/captured. He states nothing is left. I don’t know the validity of the comments, but an interesting notion.

That wasn't the question. The question was whether or not Ukraine should be allowed in NATO with a standing Nazi battalion. So should their membership be contingent on disbanding it?

 

[cb1111]

Can we please keep this extremely serious topic on track?

The question of Ukraine/NATO and Nazis is like asking if the tooth fairy is real - it is an academic discussion that adds no value to the discussion.

Up to Putin's folly, Ukraine had a snowball's chance in hell of joining NATO. Depending on this outcome, we'll see that being looked at much closer and that discussion will undoubtedly encompass many of things that people have brought up here.

That discussion has no place here yet. Corprin and the others will be happy to have that discussion once the last Russian soldier has left Ukraine and the issue of NATO membership is raised by NATO.

 

[uglybastard]

That wasn't the question. The question was whether or not Ukraine should be allowed in NATO with a standing Nazi battalion. So should their membership be contingent on disbanding it?

Expel the Nazis from the unit. They're only 10-20% of its composition.

 

[Corprin]

Can we please keep this extremely serious topic on track?

The question of Ukraine/NATO and Nazis is like asking if the tooth fairy is real - it is an academic discussion that adds no value to the discussion.

Up to Putin's folly, Ukraine had a snowball's chance in hell of joining NATO. Depending on this outcome, we'll see that being looked at much closer and that discussion will undoubtedly encompass many of things that people have brought up here.

That discussion has no place here yet. Corprin and the others will be happy to have that discussion once the last Russian soldier has left Ukraine and the issue of NATO membership is raised by NATO.

All of this.

 

[Sparky589]

In an interesting bit of news, we now have more documented losses of Russian equipment than the number of Russian servicemen killed (according to the Kremlin).

Do recommend both the site and associated twitter of the equipment losses for both sides of the conflict. As of now it's our most reliable (though certainly imperfect) measure of the military cost of the conflict for both sides.

 

[JTM88]

In an interesting bit of news, we now have more documented losses of Russian equipment than the number of Russian servicemen killed (according to the Kremlin).

Do recommend both the site and associated twitter of the equipment losses for both sides of the conflict. As of now it's our most reliable (though certainly imperfect) measure of the military cost of the conflict for both sides.

That's a lot of destruction

Wish it was easier to read

 

[Unreal1]

Expel the Nazis from the unit. They're only 10-20% of its composition.

That's like saying only 10% of the KKK is racist. The Azov was not the only militia in Ukraine and obviously not the only means of defending the country. There are plenty of militias that do not support white supremacy or have a history of violently confronting foreigners and LGBT. Thus the ideologies of Azov are only going to attract certain people, Nazis.

Azov and other militias have attacked anti-fascist demonstrations, city council meetings, media outlets, art exhibitions, foreign students and Roma. Progressive activists describe a new climate of fear that they say has been intensifying ever since last year's near-fatal stabbing of anti-war activist Stas Serhiyenko, which is believed to have been perpetrated by an extremist group named C14 (the name refers to a 14-word slogan popular among white supremacists). Brutal attacks this month on International Women’s Day marches in several Ukrainian cities prompted an unusually forceful statement from Amnesty International, which warned that "the Ukrainian state is rapidly losing its monopoly on violence.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ntary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY

The most infamous neo-Nazi group in Ukraine is the 3,000-strong Azov Battalion, founded in 2014. Prior to creating Azov, its commander, Andriy Biletsky, headed the neo-Nazi group Patriot of Ukraine, members of which went on to form the core of Azov. Biletsky had stated that the mission of Ukraine is to “lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival … against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”

Azov’s logo is composed of two emblems — the wolfsangel and the Sonnenrad — identified as neo-Nazi symbols by the Anti-Defamation League. The wolfsangel is used by the U.S. hate group Aryan Nations, while the Sonnenrad was among the neo-Nazi symbols at this summer’s deadly march in Charlottesville.

https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda

We absolutely cannot have a NATO ally with a battalion whose stated purpose is to lead a white crusade against "sub-humans" and use Nazi symbolism to represent their group. This is something that needs to be defeated wholly and fully. The fact this is even something you're trying to debate is deeply disturbing.

 

[Unreal1]

For the record, it was the person who started this thread who originally brought up the topic of Ukraine joining NATO, but now that facts have been introduced it's suddenly no longer appropriate to discuss.

 

[Sparky589]

For the record, it was the person who started this thread who originally brought up the topic of Ukraine joining NATO, but now that facts have been introduced it's suddenly no longer appropriate to discuss.

Can we seriously get this discussion moved to a different thread? Corpin's original post of this thread said, and I quote:

1. bullshit conspiracy theories and political rhetoric can stay in the appropriate thread.

2. only post verified information coming out of the war zone, or light humor/memes.

3. any NSFW content must be concealed via appropriate methods and labeled with description, i.e. dead body, wounds/blood, etc

This looping discussion over at Azov battalion falls under point 1. Ukraine's military could be comprised of 100% fascists and that would have been irrelevant for NATO membership as alliance regulations bar admission of any state currently involved in an active conflict. Which Ukraine has been a part of. For the last eight years. This thread is in need of cleaning up, (for which I am partially to blame as well), as I think we've strayed pretty damn far from discussing the actual developments of the conflict itself.

 

[Unreal1]

To make the hypocrisy clear.

They are proving by action as a government, military, and population that they are worthy of membership in EU/NATO. Imho

Wasn't in violation of the rules until he was asked to defend such a terrible stance.

 

[Corprin]

To make the hypocrisy clear.



Wasn't in violation of the rules until he was asked to defend such a terrible stance.

If having neo-Nazis in the ranks is grounds for not being a member of NATO, then most nations should be removed, including the US.

The <1% of Ukraine’s forces do not dictate the stance or actions of the people, government, and remainder of the military.

We done now? Yes? Great, moving on.



Looking at just the lost Russian armor, that’s the equivalent of 5.5 companies of tanks, just shy of two regiments. Ooof

 

[Corprin]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...per-Kyiv-claims-9-000-Putins-troops-died.html

“Try to never look important, they may be low on ammo. “ ~unknown

 

[Luva]

Corprin, I think you have asked an important question. What should the US be doing regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

I agree that our recent extended wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have made US troops on the ground in Ukraine a very unpalatable proposition with the American people, especially for a non-NATO country. Outside of obligatory sanctions and equipment support, I don't see the US getting involved. And Europe should think long and hard about appropriate levels of defense spending, especially our NATO allies.

On the flip side, if Putin were to invade a NATO ally, then the US should treat it like an invasion of Alaska. We should absolutely send troops, repel the invaders and fulfill our treaty obligations to the letter.

Corprin, I have a new level of respect for you based on hearing about your background. I may not always agree with your positions, but, I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from.