Ukraine: WAR Huh - What Is It Good For Absorootly Nothing

GTIfan99 · Jan 31, 2024

cb1111 said:
No, there are some extremists that believe that the Palestinians should be removed - even by force, but:

a: those extremists are in the minority, and
b: there is a difference between removing (even forcibly) and exterminating every Jew in the world and wiping Israel off the map.

You're smart enough to get that difference.

All that said, yes, Israel seems not to be careful with civilians, but that brings me back to that question I asked earlier - "how should Israel react when Hamas attacks them with the stated purpose of wiping Israel off the map?" That is the one and only question that needs to be answered when somebody says "they shouldn't do that"

And getting back on topic - Russia, and to a lesser extent China, have their fingers all over this with the Iranians.

The head extremist has lead the country Lukid party and the country for since 2009. He didn't accidently become the prime minister.

What Israel is doing in Gaza is 100% an extermination. You're smart enough to see that. If they're not being bombed, they're being starved.

cb1111 · Jan 31, 2024

GTIfan99 said:
The head extremist has lead the country Lukid party and the country for since 2009. He didn't accidently become the prime minister.

What Israel is doing in Gaza is 100% an extermination. You're smart enough to see that. If they're not being bombed, they're being starved.

Again, I ask "what, in your opinion, should Israel do?"

GTIfan99 · Jan 31, 2024

cb1111 said:
Again, I ask "what, in your opinion, should Israel do?"

They should target terrorists and Hamas. How is that hard to understand?

Turning Gaza to rubble and starving out the population is a war crime.

cb1111 · Feb 1, 2024

GTIfan99 said:
They should target terrorists and Hamas. How is that hard to understand?

Turning Gaza to rubble and starving out the population is a war crime.

They are targeting terrorists and Hamas (both the same thing). Since the terrorists hide behind civilians (and it is virtually impossible to distinguish the two), there is going to be collateral damage.

This is a discussion that can continue to go around and around, so why don't we just agree to disagree.

I'll close with this (and this stems in part from having studied military strategy - I wrote my thesis on German military strategy from 1939 to 1945) - a horrific act, like October 7, will always elicit some sort of "revenge" that will go above and beyond. Just like the German military vowed to shoot ten Yugoslav partisans for every soldier killed (and then shot civilians because they supported the partisans), the Israelis undoubtedly are having a difficult time distinguishing between a terrorist and those who are openly celebrating the terrorists.

War isn't pretty. Hamas could end this war in moments.

GTIfan99 · Feb 1, 2024

cb1111 said:
They are targeting terrorists and Hamas (both the same thing). Since the terrorists hide behind civilians (and it is virtually impossible to distinguish the two), there is going to be collateral damage.

This is a discussion that can continue to go around and around, so why don't we just agree to disagree.

I'll close with this (and this stems in part from having studied military strategy - I wrote my thesis on German military strategy from 1939 to 1945) - a horrific act, like October 7, will always elicit some sort of "revenge" that will go above and beyond. Just like the German military vowed to shoot ten Yugoslav partisans for every soldier killed (and then shot civilians because they supported the partisans), the Israelis undoubtedly are having a difficult time distinguishing between a terrorist and those who are openly celebrating the terrorists.

War isn't pretty. Hamas could end this war in moments.

Great Fox News talking points. "We had to drop bombs on starving children because terrorists made us."

Seriously, fuck off.

Again, there is always collateral and individuals that commit crimes, but the entire strategy is to claim they're all terrorists or will be terrorists, so kill them all. This is going to spectacularly fail, just as our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq failed. You can't defeat terrorism with indiscriminate violence and invasions. End of story. We know how this ends. Israel has 100% guaranteed 20 to 30 years of intense fighting and escalating attacks.

You defeat terrorism by protecting your county from attacks. Netanyahu failed. You defeat terrorism by removing popular support for terrorists. Netanyahu is making Hamas' case for them why the Palestinians should support them. You defeat terrorism by precise targeting of militants, not killing the human shields. That only makes them stronger. Seriously, we invaded 2 countries to get Osama Bin Laden, only to take him out using intelligence and a precision raid. In the meantime, we increased support for the terrorists 100 fold.

You can never defeat religious ideology with bombing refugee camps, schools and hospitals.

cb1111 · Feb 1, 2024

GTIfan99 said:
Great Fox News talking points. "We had to drop bombs on starving children because terrorists made us."

Seriously, fuck off.

Again, there is always collateral and individuals that commit crimes, but the entire strategy is to claim they're all terrorists or will be terrorists, so kill them all. This is going to spectacularly fail, just as our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq failed. You can't defeat terrorism with indiscriminate violence and invasions. End of story. We know how this ends. Israel has 100% guaranteed 20 to 30 years of intense fighting and escalating attacks.

You defeat terrorism by protecting your county from attacks. Netanyahu failed. You defeat terrorism by removing popular support for terrorists. Netanyahu is making Hamas' case for them why the Palestinians should support them. You defeat terrorism by precise targeting of militants, not killing the human shields. That only makes them stronger. Seriously, we invaded 2 countries to get Osama Bin Laden, only to take him out using intelligence and a precision raid. In the meantime, we increased support for the terrorists 100 fold.

You can never defeat religious ideology with bombing refugee camps, schools and hospitals.

I thought we could have a discussion without personal attacks - I was wrong.

A bit of unsolicited advice - personal attacks just say "I can't make my point, so I'll throw out some insults"

GTIfan99 · Feb 1, 2024

cb1111 said:
I thought we could have a discussion without personal attacks - I was wrong.

A bit of unsolicited advice - personal attacks just say "I can't make my point, so I'll throw out some insults"

A bit of personal advice, don't try to justify intentionally bombing and starving out children, which are 100% war crimes. If you don't think that's a valid point, then you've literally proven my point for me.

This "Israel has no choice but to openly and deliberately commit war crimes" shtick is sickening and has always failed.

cb1111 · Feb 1, 2024

and now, back to regularly scheduled programming.

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MeltedSolid · Feb 1, 2024

Hamas:
Initiated conflict most recently
Killed >1,000 civilians
extremist assholes

Israel:
Colonized the area
killed >20,000 civilians
Oppressive to the Palestinians, jailing people who speak out against them, authoritarian assholes

Maybe war is bad and both can be condemned independently without comparing to the other?

cb1111 · Feb 1, 2024

MeltedSolid said:
Hamas:
Initiated conflict most recently
Killed >1,000 civilians
extremist assholes

Israel:
Colonized the area
killed >20,000 civilians
Oppressive to the Palestinians, jailing people who speak out against them, authoritarian assholes

Maybe war is bad and both can be condemned independently without comparing to the other?

A very good point.

Hamas needs to be eliminated.
Israel needs to figure out how to eliminate Hamas with wiping out the residents of Gaza

Two separate issues. The first is, IMO, unquestionably correct. The second is a very difficult one to answer.

and yes, I agree with your conclusions. I'm not in Israel's shoes, so I don't know if they have a right to be authoritarian assholes - maybe that has kept them alive until now.